SWT and Weekend First

[greatkingrat]

Weekend First isn't an entitlement under the COC though. While I agree that it is one journey for the purposes of Delay Repay, for Weekend First SWT are free to charge whatever they like, whether that is £5 per journey, £5 per ticket, £5 per train etc.

 

[iwearahalo2]

I suspect TO's, travel centre's and train managers issue them without worrying and quite right too (I believe I put this initially) concerning two tickets travelling through on the same service but I'm not so sure about another service altogether, why would they be?

 

[ainsworth74]

Where?

Condition 19.

 

[crehld]

Where?

Tickets are not contracts, they are evidence of a contract. This is confirmed in Condition 1 of the NRCoC.

1. Your contract
A ticket that has been issued to you is evidence of a contract between you and each Train Company whose trains you have the right to use.

This condition goes on to state:

Each ticket is issued subject to:
(a) these Conditions;

Therefore the NRCoC is the contract (or at least part of it), not the actual ticket.

The NRCoC, as part of the contract, goes on to state:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;

or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Thus in your example the journey from Waterloo to Weymouth using tickets from Waterloo to Southampton and Southampton to Weymouth is ONE journey, made with TWO tickets which taken together both form evidence of ONE contract.

I hope this clarifies things.

 

[iwearahalo2]

Condition 19.

Where does it say a combination of tickets of one through journey contractually become one ticket?

All that says you can combine numerous tickets on a journey subject to certain conditions of use.
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Tickets are not contracts, they are evidence of a contract. This is confirmed in Condition 1 of the NRCoC.



This condition goes on to state:



Therefore the NRCoC is the contract (or at least part of it), not the actual ticket.

The NRCoC, as part of the contract, goes on to state:



Thus in your example the journey from Waterloo to Weymouth using tickets from Waterloo to Southampton and Southampton to Weymouth is ONE journey, made with TWO tickets.

I hope this clarifies things.

Where have I disagreed with that?

 

[crehld]

Where have I disagreed with that?

Here:

As I have already written tickets are contracts as such and if you travel on a journey from Wat to Wey with two tickets held Wat/Sou Sou/Wey then even though it is one through journey contractually it is actually two separate journeys.

And here:

Contractually you are making a number of journeys as when you reach your destination that ticket becomes used and then invalid, your new one (providing the service stops there becomes your new one for a new journey) in place becomes your valid ticket BUT technically its a new journey on a different ticket.

 

[iwearahalo2]

Here:



And here:

Yes and that part I stand by, where in the conditions of carriage does it say two become one, does it? I don't think so, season tickets, passes are completely different than train tickets combined.

 

[crehld]

Yes and that part I stand by, where in the conditions of carriage does it say two become one, does it? I don't think so, season tickets, passes are completely different than train tickets combined.

At the risk of needless repetition:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey

 

[Hadders]

Condition 19 as I pointed out to you yesterday further up the thread.

 

[iwearahalo2]

At the risk of needless repetition:

Yes but that not say those two tickets become contractually one does it? It emans you can use them on one through journey, we are digressing and going over old ground. I'll spell this out

1) Two or more tickets can be used for one journey providing they meet the conditions of use.

2) A weekend 1st ticket is only technically valid on one journey with one ticket if however two tickets are used en route meeting the conditions of use I suspect all good clerks, train managers, station retailers will use their common sense and put the supplement as a through journey on one ticket number.
If no ticket number is needed on a toc's supplement all well and good.

3) This does not mean you can change trains on the same toc and continue to use the 1st class facility as it locally controlled by the train manager and he would not know the passenger loading of another departed service (how could he?)


I hope this clears things up, phone FGW and they'll probably tell you acactly what I have written, phone them please.

 

[Bletchleyite]

3) This does not mean you can change trains on the same toc and continue to use the 1st class facility

1. Yes you can, if accommodation is available.

2. That point is not generally in question on the thread. What is in question is the use of split ticketing.

 

[iwearahalo2]

Condition 19 as I pointed out to you yesterday further up the thread.

Condition 19 stipulates the allowance of two or more tickets on one journey, it does not contractually say they become one,
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1. Yes you can, if accommodation is available.

2. That point is not generally in question on the thread. What is in question is the use of split ticketing.

When does it say that? So if you book in advance you can only get it on a specific train but if you buy it on the day you get 1st class on the relevant toc that has space all day long? I don't think that a rule to be fair but the good discretion used by people, they are two separate things.

Ask a question on split ticketing and I'll give you the answer or I'll try to.

 

[crehld]

Condition 19 stipulates the allowance of two or more tickets on one journey, it does not contractually say they become one,

This is a contradictory sentence. Perhaps a lack of clarity is at the root of confusion.

 

[Hadders]

So when is one journey not one journey?

What about VTEC's policy that I linked to further up the thread. They are very clear. Could I use a combination of tickets with one supplement?

 

[iwearahalo2]

This is a contradictory sentence. Perhaps a lack of clarity is at the root of confusion.

No it's not, two tickets can be use to make one through journey but contractually they are separate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So when is one journey not one journey?

What about VTEC's policy that I linked to further up the thread. They are very clear. Could I use a combination of tickets with one supplement?

Sorry could you quote that or ask me a direct question concerning it?

 

[Hadders]

Sorry could you quote that or ask me a direct question concerning it?

See post #12. Seriously are you taking account of anything we say.

 

[iwearahalo2]

Yes but I'm not sure to what you refer, of course I am reading this, you posted that at 2345 last night!

 

[crehld]

Yes but that not say those two tickets become contractually one does it? It emans you can use them on one through journey, we are digressing and going over old ground. I'll spell this out

1) Two or more tickets can be used for one journey providing they meet the conditions of use.

Yes!

2) A weekend 1st ticket is only technically valid on one journey with one ticket if however two tickets are used en route meeting the conditions of use I suspect all good clerks, train managers, station retailers will use their common sense and put the supplement as a through journey on one ticket number.
If no ticket number is needed on a toc's supplement all well and good.

I disagree. Perhaps you could link to the relevant terms and conditions which categorically state a weekend first ticket is only valid on one journey with one ticket? That would probably clear the matter up.

3) This does not mean you can change trains on the same toc and continue to use the 1st class facility as it locally controlled by the train manager and he would not know the passenger loading of another departed service (how could he?)

I hope this clears things up, phone FGW and they'll probably tell you acactly what I have written, phone them please.

I have no idea what FGW have to do with this! But since you bring them up they have this to say about your third point above:

Just buy your upgrade on board - it’s not available at ticket offices. If you need to change onto another First Great Western train as part of your journey, you’ll only have to pay one upgrade fee

Source: https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/your-journey/on-board/first-class

So contrary to what you say it appears you can purchase a weekend first ticket, change trains onto a service operated by the same TOC and continue to use the first class facility.

No it's not, two tickets can be use to make one through journey but contractually they are separate.

Again this makes no sense whatsoever. How can one journey as defined in the contract (the NRCoC) be contractually separate journeys??? It's a contradiction in terms.

Sorry could you quote that or ask me a direct question concerning it?

I believe Hadders has already done this. The relevant quote you request can be found in post 12.

 

[Hadders]

Yes but I'm not sure to what you refer, of course I am reading this, you posted that at 2345 last night!

And you posted a reply to my post at 2355 last night!

 

[iwearahalo2]

And you posted a reply to my post at 2355 last night!

Yes but that doesn't mean I can recall to a post today from last night, this debate arose from a possibility of multiple use of a supplement and I believe you can only use it for one journey and I still believe that, whether it is used as an all day upgrade 1st on a specific toc is another matter altogether.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes!



I disagree. Perhaps you could link to the relevant terms and conditions which categorically state a weekend first ticket is only valid on one journey with one ticket? That would probably clear the matter up.



I have no idea what FGW have to do with this! But since you bring them up they have this to say about your third point above:


Source: https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/your-journey/on-board/first-class

So contrary to what you say it appears you can purchase a weekend first ticket, change trains onto a service operated by the same TOC and continue to use the first class facility.



Again this makes no sense whatsoever. How can one journey as defined in the contract (the NRCoC) be contractually separate journeys??? It's a contradiction in terms.



I believe Hadders has already done this. The relevant quote you request can be found in post 12.

I spoke to Swindon TO and they say one journey but wouldn't have an issue on tickets being issued for one journey provided they meet the criteria and issuing a supplement for the whole through journey, they would not honour a multiple use of one. But I go back to being on a train and space available then the manager may use his discretion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes!



I disagree. Perhaps you could link to the relevant terms and conditions which categorically state a weekend first ticket is only valid on one journey with one ticket? That would probably clear the matter up.



I have no idea what FGW have to do with this! But since you bring them up they have this to say about your third point above:


Source: https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/your-journey/on-board/first-class

So contrary to what you say it appears you can purchase a weekend first ticket, change trains onto a service operated by the same TOC and continue to use the first class facility.



Again this makes no sense whatsoever. How can one journey as defined in the contract (the NRCoC) be contractually separate journeys??? It's a contradiction in terms.



I believe Hadders has already done this. The relevant quote you request can be found in post 12.

If I buy a ticket from Liv to Birchwood and then onwards from Birchwood to Man, who is my contract with and from where?

 

[headshot119]

It seems as though this thread is going round in circles.

I have said my bit and stand by it. I've seen no solid evidence that a person needs to purchase multiple weekend first upgrades if they are using split tickets.

iwearahalo2 appears to have a limited understanding of the NRCOC and is disagreeing with other forum members on well established points. Such as a the definition of "a journey".

I see no need to discuss things further.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Our commercial guide clearly states that the SWT upgrade is £5 per journey and it has been made clear on this forum and by ATOC (I believe) that you can use more than one ticket for one journey. The difficulty comes when people change trains as we are not supposed to issue a weekend first upgrade for any train except the one we are working. Passengers travelling from Cosham/Fareham to Waterloo last Sunday were required to change at Eastleigh as the Bournemouth-Waterloo services were doubled up to 10 cars throughout due to the Bournemouth airshow so portion working with a split at Eastleigh was not in operation. People who got on at Cosham/Fareham etc wanted upgrades so I just let them use 1st at no additional cost to Eastleigh as they would then have the upgrade payment taken on the next portion of the journey-I didn't want to sell people upgrades only for them to change at Eastleigh onto trains where 1st was full up.

Other than megatrain any standard class ticket holders can upgrade, at least that's what our guide says.

 

[iwearahalo2]

I can assure you I have quite a sound knowledge of the workings of the conditions of carriage, as said above are supplements in there? I spoke to Swindon TO this morning and they confirm what I have said but I'll go by that again, if you plan to use a supplement as a one day 1st class upgrade then you may do, but that doesn't make it valid it makes it permitted by one person on the train, it is therefore convenient for oneself to assume this is correct as it suits the purposes of the user but again that does not make it correct as it never used to be on weekend 1st so why would it now? What about quota control? What about a train manager knowing the flows of others services?

I fully understand what a "journey" is as well but we again go under the convenience of users to what is actually proper and correct.

I refer that to my point of fare flows, ticketing and splits along a path where by there are many tocs using the track, who takes ownership of it if there are delays and people are splitting tickets everywhere?

The old £3 upgrade of gold cards possibly could have been used all I can't recall its been that long but others? No I don't think so.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Our commercial guide clearly states that the SWT upgrade is £5 per journey and it has been made clear on this forum and by ATOC (I believe) that you can use more than one ticket for one journey. The difficulty comes when people change trains as we are not supposed to issue a weekend first upgrade for any train except the one we are working. Passengers travelling from Cosham/Fareham to Waterloo last Sunday were required to change at Eastleigh as the Bournemouth-Waterloo services were doubled up to 10 cars throughout due to the Bournemouth airshow so portion working with a split at Eastleigh was not in operation. People who got on at Cosham/Fareham etc wanted upgrades so I just let them use 1st at no additional cost to Eastleigh as they would then have the upgrade payment taken on the next portion of the journey-I didn't want to sell people upgrades only for them to change at Eastleigh onto trains where 1st was full up.

Other than megatrain any standard class ticket holders can upgrade, at least that's what our guide says.

Thank you Matt.

 

[jon0844]

As I just travelled on SWT and upgraded to first class, here are the tickets I got.

It seems that the guard can enter the start and end stations, so I see no reason why you couldn't not only pay just £5 on the day, but even use more than one train, even if you split at every single calling point.

Note how the guard also picked a rather interesting type for my outbound upgrade (top): Virgin Trains East Coast 1st class Lounge?!

 

[antharro]

I frequently end up with an East Coast 1st class lounge upgrade when I take the weekend upgrade on SWT. I know nothing about the ticket machines, but I wonder if this is the first upgrade available, so they take it.

I do wonder though if the money goes to SWT or EC?

 

[Starmill]

More than that, I wonder what would happen if you tried to use one to enter the lounge!

 

[jon0844]

Yeah, it's a shame it wasn't issued on the return journey given I passed through King's Cross to get home!