SWT Class 450's

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Uzair

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Is there a reason that the Class 450's that operate on the suburban routes out of Waterloo (Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge/Twickenham etc) are predominantly allocated to those lines and not on the lines to Dorking/Guildford v Cobham & Epsom/Shepperton/Hampton Court/Chessington?

In other words, why do barely any Class 450's operate on the suburban routes through Wimbledon? I'm not complaining - I like the Class 455's, but I was just curious.
 
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swt_passenger

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The bottom line is that the 450s, especially the original 110 units, basically just replaced Mk1 slam door EMUs on a one for one basis.

The various 455 operated routes on the main line side were left with the stock that was already operating them - there was no reason to change them, indeed with 96 units on the SWT side, there was never any likelihhod of them being replaced at the same time, they were only just over 20 years old when the 450s were being ordered.
 

The Colonel

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You'll probably find also that the 450 coaches are a smidgeon longer than 455 ones, so may have problems at some of the stations which are only just 8 cars long.

Anyway the 455's still have camshaft control and old 4 SUB motors so I'm quite happy with them down my lines, although straight Westinghouse brakes would be even better, but that's going OT :D
 

387star

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Am I right 458/460s will take over Windsor workings and if so what will happen to HD units? Sorry if covered elsewhere
 

jopsuk

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As far As I know, returned to original configuration and used to strengthen outer suburban services.
 

387star

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Ah cheers didn't realise they were going to retun them to original spec. I presume the ripped out FC seats are stored somewhere? My worry was we we would see them on Portsmouth services!
 

MCR247

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A straight swap. Windsor gets 458s, Reading gets 450s :)
 

swt_passenger

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As far As I know, returned to original configuration and used to strengthen outer suburban services.

Someone asked SWT in their recent webchat and they did confirm that the overall project does include reverting the 450/5s to their original spec.
 

TEW

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There are some extra 450s displaced as well allowing the couple of mainline services that were mentioned in the original DfT announcement to be displaced. 30 458s are converted to 36 458/5s so there's a slight increase in the number of units SWT have.
 

gswindale

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I'm not looking forward to it. The seats on the 458 are more comfy than the 450.

Just as well I drive to work now!
 

387star

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Yeah but AFAIK they are installing desiro seats to the class 460 varient during conversion?
 

Matt Taylor

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I don't have the full details to hand but bear in mind that despite being the same number of cars a 450 is 2.1 metres longer than a 455 which means they just don't fit in some platforms (in 8 car formations) without the use of selective door operation (New Malden, Norbiton and Hampton Wick are good examples of this). Operating via SDO takes longer to actually operate and it also takes longer for people to get off because they can only do so via 8 doors rather than 16 so it is avoided where possible.

In a rare move I had the pleasure of working a pair of 450s from Kingston to Teddington last Tuesday and doing SDO at Hampton Wick doubled the standard dwell time.
 

swt_passenger

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Yeah but AFAIK they are installing desiro seats to the class 460 varient during conversion?

As far as the seats are concerned the Modern Railways article reckoned the existing 2+3 seats from the 458s would be converted to 2+2, (and be spread further apart unlike in the 450/5s). But you can see why that might be translated wrongly as 'Desiro style' seating...

Presumably the existing 2+2 seated ex 460 cars will be suitable for use anyway, leaving just their 2+1 first class sections to be changed?

Desiro 'style' gangwayed cabs were reported as being fitted.
 

Robbies

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Won't 460 2+2 be different to commuter/suburban 2+2?

Admittedly it was a few years ago, but the seating in the Class 460 standard did not look that different to the seating you get in a class 444 or Electrostar 377 to be honest, so I could never workout why there was the extra cost of taking you to London Victoria other than the fact that it did not stop.
 

MCR247

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I mean like tables etc, which the 458 doesn't feature :)
 

swt_passenger

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I mean like tables etc, which the 458 doesn't feature :)

That's the sort of thing I was thinking of with my question above. Suppose they removed the tables, would it actually be cost effective to re-arrange the 2+2 seats to change the layout as well, given that it might only be a difference of low single figures (maybe 2, 4 or 6?) across the entitre carriage, and once 30 of the carriages are dispersed into the 458s, will the difference be enough to worry about in terms of the 5 car unit's overall capacity?

If as an example you compare the MSOs of the two classes, the 458 has 75 seats, so a simple change from 2+3 to 2+2 would give 60 seats, but of course they are taking out more than that, as there'll be some singles at the doors - so maybe 56 seats or less. A 460 MSO apparently has 58 2+2 seats to start with, so they are in the same ball park...
 

phil281

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That's the sort of thing I was thinking of with my question above. Suppose they removed the tables, would it actually be cost effective to re-arrange the 2+2 seats to change the layout as well, given that it might only be a difference of low single figures (maybe 2, 4 or 6?) across the entitre carriage, and once 30 of the carriages are dispersed into the 458s, will the difference be enough to worry about in terms of the 5 car unit's overall capacity?

If as an example you compare the MSOs of the two classes, the 458 has 75 seats, so a simple change from 2+3 to 2+2 would give 60 seats, but of course they are taking out more than that, as there'll be some singles at the doors - so maybe 56 seats or less. A 460 MSO apparently has 58 2+2 seats to start with, so they are in the same ball park...

No more 3+2 seating....there is a god!
 
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