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SWT Red Livery - still shiny on EMUs in service, how?

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Bessie

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With the withdrawal of the Class 456s what has struck me with these units and the SWR 455s is how well their red focused livery from SWT times has remained shiny. In my experience red coloured cars are notable for fading badly and likewise back in the day the NSE paint jobs faded very quickly. What is the secret to their red livery remaining so fresh?
 
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Snow1964

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From memory the red paint is not the top coat, there is some sort of hard wearing (ceramic ?) top coat which is designed to repel water and dirt
 

Bletchleyite

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From memory the red paint is not the top coat, there is some sort of hard wearing (ceramic ?) top coat which is designed to repel water and dirt

Probably this. Red is typically the "budget" car colour, and as such does not have a protective layer like metallic and pearlescent colours do. You can add a matt lacquer too, but people won't buy that with cars because they want the premium look.
 

swt_passenger

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Pretty sure they had a repaint a few years ago too. Around 2014-16?
IIRC the last few 455s were still in a repaint programme when the first 442s were reactivated, I recall someone saying the 442s would use the same relatively new paint facility, and would only start after the 455s were all done.
 

nlogax

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456s weren't re-introduced to service with SWT / SWR all that long ago, 2015 I think? Always liked the 455 & 456 paint jobs and whatever the underlying technical reason for their durability I'm glad the stock still looks as good as it does.
 

D6975

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I think quite a lot of the red stripes on the old NSE livery were coloured vinyl which faded quite rapidly.
 

swt_passenger

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456s weren't re-introduced to service with SWT / SWR all that long ago, 2015 I think? Always liked the 455 & 456 paint jobs and whatever the underlying technical reason for their durability I'm glad the stock still looks as good as it does.
I think most were in service with SWT and painted by 2015, if you check out Paul Bigland‘s recently posted photo set about 456s there’s a few shown in service on the SW in unbranded SN colours in 2014:
 

Carlisle

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I suspect paint technology has improved and the trains are cleaned better (with no chemicals or less caustic ones), too.
Indeed, acid was widely used in the days of the old slammers as little else was as effective in removing the brake block dust.
 
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nlogax

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I think most were in service with SWT and painted by 2015, if you check out Paul Bigland‘s recently posted photo set about 456s there’s a few shown in service on the SW in unbranded SN colours in 2014:
Ah, that's interesting, thank you. I don't recall them trundling around SW metals in Southern colours so that's fun to see. I do have a vague recollection that as part of their SWT refurb they needed mods in order to run in multiple with SWT's 455s though can't remember any details about that.
 

TEW

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Ah, that's interesting, thank you. I don't recall them trundling around SW metals in Southern colours so that's fun to see. I do have a vague recollection that as part of their SWT refurb they needed mods in order to run in multiple with SWT's 455s though can't remember any details about that.
The PA/ Cab to Cab systems weren't compatible between the unrefurbished 456s and SWT 455s. The Southern liveried 456s only ran in passenger service on the Ascot to Guildford line, although there was a single weekday morning Clapham Junction to Guildford via Ascot service that did use them. It cycled units through Wimbledon Park Depot. A pair also ran Aldershot to Wimbledon via Woking ECS in the evening.
 

Feathers44

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I once came across a pair in the bay platform at Kingston. In the debranded green, that is. I think it was driver training rather then anything more unusual, though.

Edit: It was long enough ago I’m having doubts as to whether I saw them personally or on video somewhere.
 

Bigfoot

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I once came across a pair in the bay platform at Kingston. In the debranded green, that is. I think it was driver training rather then anything more unusual, though.

Edit: It was long enough ago I’m having doubts as to whether I saw them personally or on video somewhere.
They ran from Strawberry Hill Depot - Kingston - Shepperton a couple of times and then back to Strawberry Hill Depot daily in green when they first arrived for guard and driver training.
 

nlogax

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The PA/ Cab to Cab systems weren't compatible between the unrefurbished 456s and SWT 455s. The Southern liveried 456s only ran in passenger service on the Ascot to Guildford line, although there was a single weekday morning Clapham Junction to Guildford via Ascot service that did use them. It cycled units through Wimbledon Park Depot. A pair also ran Aldershot to Wimbledon via Woking ECS in the evening.

Ahh, thank you for the memory jog!
 

AM9

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Indeed, acid was widely used in the days of the old slammers as little else was as effective in removing the brake block dust.
I remember around the late '60s an article in one of the railway mags reviewed the class 310 EMUs for the LMR outer suburban services. In that article it mentioned that the new trains were painted with alkyd resin paint that was (more) resistant to the acid in detergents used by washers in car sheds. At that time, EMUs (in my case the GEML ex-LNER and BR MKI classes) were subject to streaking of painted surfaces where the solution tended to gather before it dried. That was with the original LNER green, later BR green and BR 'rail blue'. ISTR that the 310s and 312s did tend to look smarter for longer so I suppose that it worked. The more recent use of bright red liveries has probably been vbiable with further development sin uindustrial coatings, (specifically, clear lacquer coats over the colour coat) which probably also includes UV screens as well to reduce fading.
 

gg1

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In my experience red coloured cars are notable for fading badly
Historically maybe but not anymore. The 7 year old red Citroen I traded in last year still had very strong colouration with no noticeable fading, and was suitably shiny after a wash.

As mentioned earlier the answer is probably as simple as better quality paints nowadays.
 

Bessie

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Thanks for the responses. It does seem strange to see withdrawn units in very good nick externally unlike my days spotting in the 1980's when there were some really grotty examples which were worthy of the scrapper!
 

AM9

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Thanks for the responses. It does seem strange to see withdrawn units in very good nick externally unlike my days spotting in the 1980's when there were some really grotty examples which were worthy of the scrapper!
It might be that the nice shiny paint is holding the advancing rust in place! :)
 

Bigfoot

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It might be that the nice shiny paint is holding the advancing rust in place! :)
This is definitely the case! Closer inspection around windows and doors and there is much evidence of corrosion.
 

davetheguard

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I think quite a lot of the red stripes on the old NSE livery were coloured vinyl which faded quite rapidly.

I remember Mark Hopwood of GWR once saying at a public meeting that he much preferred paint to vinyl on his trains as paint kept its shine better.
 

Dr_Paul

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Indeed, acid was widely used in the days of the old slammers as little else was as effective in removing the brake block dust.
I remember passing by the washing shed at Wimbledon on the way up to Waterloo and seeing the word 'ACID' on the illuminated display panel by the shed, and wondered what it meant. Presumably that was one reason why the blue paint on BR stock used to fade so badly.
 

SLTRegular

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its definetely bizarre the red wears so well considering everything else in red wears so badly like Mazda cars in red for example
 

Taunton

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Thanks for the responses. It does seem strange to see withdrawn units in very good nick externally unlike my days spotting in the 1980's when there were some really grotty examples which were worthy of the scrapper!
Does seem to vary by depot. When the old LMS Merseyside units were replaced by the 507s around 1980, the Southport line trains were as described, with large areas of peeling paint, frayed moquette, jammed sliding ventilators, and even notable body dents. The comparable Wirral units were the opposite, and even when being broken up in Birkenhead looked fully presentable. Yet both had been overhauled at the same works with the same materials through their lives, and were likely on the same maintenance budget.

Presumably that was one reason why the blue paint on BR stock used to fade so badly

Blue was a colour whose pigment long faded more than others, and was regarded in the paint industry as "difficult", hence a preponderance of red and green in liveries. Of course, white is the worst. Paint technology at ICI came up with a more resistant blue in the early 1960s, which was a principal reason behind the new BR livery of the era going for it, as it was different to what had gone before (often the No 1 justification for new liveries). Actually it was not, inevitably, all it was cracked up to be, especially where repainted too thinly over existing colour (it worked better on new stock), and there were a couple of further paint pigment enhancements before it was finally felt to be adequate.
 

Towers

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I think in summary, SWT essentially just looked after their fleet.

As a TOC they had their critics, but in my experience their trains were well presented and gave an overall impression of a company who cared about the public perception of their product. Their 455 (& 456!) refurbishment was superb, and genuinely gave new life to ageing rolling stock, including of course the paintwork. I think that likely goes some way to suggest why their legacy fleet is still looking so well.
 

davetheguard

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its definetely bizarre the red wears so well considering everything else in red wears so badly like Mazda cars in red for example

I think there's the odd location in the south east (Croxley Green branch?) that still has a lampost or two in Network SouthEast red, much faded now to a rather pale-looking pink!
 

adamello

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I think there's the odd location in the south east (Croxley Green branch?) that still has a lampost or two in Network SouthEast red, much faded now to a rather pale-looking pink!
Signage was still there in 2012 https://goo.gl/maps/PSUSVQ2oH7rKP9fi6 - but removed as of 2014 https://goo.gl/maps/iBBDXtwtKSp3Zzeq9

(links are to google maps streetview, may need to view with browser, not app to see the above as 'historical' captures..)

The most recent capture I think shows the posts in amongst the trees - i think? https://goo.gl/maps/Ss88KEzRcRjuXarSA
 

davetheguard

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