SWT seasons

[johnnycache]

This post is an experiment

Here are some season ticket fares from (mainly) SWT stations to London Terminals and I was interested in views about how good a job the pricing manager has done

Ascot London 00000 FGW £99.40
Ascot London 00735 SWT £80.70
Wokingham London 00000 FGW £99.40
Wokingham London 00640 SWT £88.10
Wokingham London 00735 SWT £84.80
Earley London 00000 FGW £99.40
Earley London 00735 SWT £89.80
Reading stns London 00000 FGW £99.40
(Route 00640 via Ascot/Guildford)
(Route 00735 via Staines)
(Route 00735 no season fare from Reading)

Basingstoke London 00000 FGW £99.40
Basingstoke London 00635 SWT £98.80
Mortimer London 00620 SWT £103.40
Mortimer London 00826 FGW £99.40
(Route 00620 via Basingstoke)
(Route 00635 via Woking)
(Route 00826 via Reading)

Crowthorne London 00000 FGW £99.40
Crowthorne London 00640 SWT £86.10
Sandhurst London 00000 FGW £99.40
Sandhurst London 00640 SWT £86.10
Blackwater London 00000 FGW £99.40
Blackwater London 00640 SWT £86.10
(Route 00640 via Ascot/Guildford)

Farnborough stns London 00000 FGW £99.40
Farnborough stns London 00810 SWT £86.50
(Route 00810 not via Reading)

North Camp London 00000 FGW £99.40
North Camp London 00810 SWT £88.20
Ash London 00000 FGW £99.40
Ash London 00810 SWT £84.20
Wanborough London 00000 FGW £99.40
Wanborough London 00611 SWT £84.20
Guildford London 00826 FGW £99.40
Guildford London 00506 SWT £80.60
Shalford London 00000 SWT £80.80
Chilworth London 00000 SWT £88.40
Gomshall London 00000 SWT £88.40
Gomshall London 00609 SWT £85.90
Worplesdon London 00000 SWT £74.50
(Route 00506 via Clandon/Woking)
(Route 00609 not via Guildford)
(Route 00611 via Guildford)
(Route 00810 not via Reading)
(Route 00826 via Reading)

Hook London 00000 SWT £91.70
Winchfield London 00000 SWT £89.90
Fleet London 00000 SWT £88.00
Bagshot London 00000 SWT £84.20
Bagshot London 00613 SWT £83.10
Camberley 00000 SWT £84.60
Frimley London 00000 SWT £84.60
Aldershot London 00000 FGW £85.70
Ash Vale London 00000 SWT £84.60
Ash Vale London 00635 SWT £84.20
Brookwood London 00000 SWT £80.50
Woking London 00000 SWT £72.40
(Route 00613 via Ascot)
(Route 00635 via Woking)

Main comments

Without a routeing guide handy there may be things i've missed but
the following stand out-

From Wokingham you can buy a ticket valid via Guildford-from Earley you can't unless you pay the full Paddington via Reading price

From Mortimer you can't buy a ticket valid both via Basingstoke or Reading-but from Basingstoke you can-so buy that!

From Basingstoke the difference between the via Woking and Any Permitted fares is negligible - a lot of people will trade up and SWT revenue will be less

The fares from Crowthorne, Sandhurst and Blackwater appear not to allow walking between Farnborough North and Farnborough or North Camp and Ash Vale

North Camp costs more to London than Blackwater, Sandhurst, Crowthorne and even Wokingham so if you want to travel via Guildford choose another station to buy from

If you want to travel from Wokingham to London its cheaper from Ash (route not via Reading)

Shalford looks like its valid via Guildford or Dorking or Redhill and would be better value for Chilworth and Gomshall

Bagshot slightly cheaper than Camberley and Frimley

The biggest surprise was Basingstoke

 

[soil]

Ascot - Paddington takes about the same amount of time as Ascot - Waterloo, though the latter is direct. Frequency is much better to Waterloo.

For most Ascot - London season ticket holders, the Waterloo season is preferable to a Reading season. It is also cheaper. So pricing is fine.

Wokingham - Waterloo via Guildford is a waste of time, so there's a choice of the £84.80/wk direct season via Staines or the £99.40/wk via Reading. Via Reading potentially 15 minutes quicker. Given however the direct train, and £600/yr price difference, the SWT fare looks attractive enough.

From Earley via Reading is more attractive and I sense perhaps that the SWT fare is too pricey, particularly when you consider the bonus of free travel into Reading on weekends etc. (Wokingham has its own shopping facilities).

Basingstoke - London should be owned by SWT, as their services are faster and direct.

The FGW season fares are all priced on the basis of a Reading - Paddington fast train being a scarce resource, and you pay £100/wk for that, and any add-ons are essentially free. SWT have a more sophisticated network with multiple 'hubs', and so their pricing is more distance-based.

From Basingstoke they will lose out to FGW, and you would look perhaps to cut this fare:

Farnborough Main £86.50
Fleet £88
Winchfield £89.90
Hook £91.70
Basingstoke £98.80
Overton £102.30
Micheldever £103.40

You would have thought they would want to cut the price by around £5/week, to somewhere near £93/wk. (Overton - Basingstoke and Micheldever - Basingstoke are both over £20/wk, so no issues there).

There are quite a few anomalies with SWT season ticket prices, so I guess they haven't considered it too carefully. I don't think anomalies such as Ash via Wokingham are likely to be widely used, but losing out so many of the thousands of season ticket holders from BSK seems pretty dumb.

 

[johnnycache]

Its perhaps surprising that SWT don't offer a SWT only season ticket from Reading to try to pick off a few of the more price sensitive customers or at least the ones who work near Waterloo for whom the time penalty might not be too serious

The other thing I'd try to do would be to apply to take ownership of the Basingstoke London Any Permitted flow and then gradually increase its price above the Reading price
There is a process for this and I would expect SWT to succeed on the basis that their ownership would be most likely to lead to growth of overall rail income

With the current system the ORCATS allocations for Any Permitted tickets between Basingstoke and London would be calculated as follows:

Consider all opportunities to travel between Basingstoke and London except those passing, stopping or inter-changing at Woking ie only routes via Reading would get considered

 

[FenMan]

The fares from Crowthorne, Sandhurst and Blackwater appear not to allow walking between Farnborough North and Farnborough or North Camp and Ash Vale

Blackwater (BAW) to London Terminals route Any Permitted includes the following:-

BAW -- Farnborough North -- walk -- Farnborough Main - London Terminals
BAW -- North Camp -- walk -- Ash Vale -- London Terminals (via Woking or Ascot)
BAW -- Reading -- Paddington
BAW -- Guildford -- London Terminals (via Woking or Effingham Junction)
BAW -- Wokingham -- Ascot -- London Terminals
BAW -- Wokingham -- Virginia Water -- Weybridge -- London Terminals

The last three are the permitted routes on the restricted Via Ascot/Guildford ticket.

Excepting the via Virginia Water and Weybridge route (no reason to go that way) I've used all of the above routes with tickets from BAW that include travel to London Any Permitted with no issues.

I still haven't plucked up enough courage to return to BAW from Paddington in the evening peak using one of the many off peak tickets that don't include the usual FGW evening peak restrictions. In the interests of a quiet life I chicken out and use services from Waterloo instead.

 

[soil]

Blackwater (BAW) to London Terminals route Any Permitted includes the following:-

BAW -- Farnborough North -- walk -- Farnborough Main - London Terminals
BAW -- North Camp -- walk -- Ash Vale -- London Terminals (via Woking or Ascot)
BAW -- Reading -- Paddington
BAW -- Guildford -- London Terminals (via Woking or Effingham Junction)
BAW -- Wokingham -- Ascot -- London Terminals
BAW -- Wokingham -- Virginia Water -- Weybridge -- London Terminals

The last three are the permitted routes on the restricted Via Ascot/Guildford ticket.

Plus Blackwater - Redhill - Clapham Junction - Waterloo

also

Blackwater - Ash - Aldershot - Ash Vale - Woking - Waterloo (effectively the same as Blackwater - North Camp walk to Ash Vale, but this adds validity to Aldershot, if you ever wanted to go there for some inexplicable reason)

I think however Johnny's point was that they should probably change 'Ascot/Guildford' to 'Not Via Reading', and permit travel Woking.

 

[wintonian]

Its perhaps surprising that SWT don't offer a SWT only season ticket from Reading to try to pick off a few of the more price sensitive customers or at least the ones who work near Waterloo for whom the time penalty might not be too serious

I have considered this to be slightly odd myself considering the availability of via Stains fares. In some ways FGW might be glad to off load a few more Reading - London passengers to SWT.

Whilst were on the subject of SWT's fares structure and seen as their market isn't too dissimilar to Southerns, what do you think they could learn from the way Southern has structured their fares? If you don't mind me asking that is.

 

[David Goddard]

Plus Blackwater - Redhill - Clapham Junction - Waterloo.

Or into London Bridge/Charing Cross?

 

[soil]

Or into London Bridge/Charing Cross?

No only CLJ/WAT. The routeing maps are antiquated and includes the Reading - Kensington Olympia - Croydon service, which ran via Clapham Junction. Obviously part of the route can no longer be completed (I think the Parliamentary train may have been wthdrawn), but the section from Redhill to Clapham Junction is still in active use, and map WR includes the link to Waterloo, only.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=21
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=118

 

[tsr]

Obviously part of the route can no longer be completed (I think the Parliamentary train may have been wthdrawn)

Isn't there a theoretical weekly bus? Or was that withdrawn? I can't remember. Might be an interesting one to clarify!

 

[johnnycache]

I have considered this to be slightly odd myself considering the availability of via Stains fares. In some ways FGW might be glad to off load a few more Reading - London passengers to SWT.

Whilst were on the subject of SWT's fares structure and seen as their market isn't too dissimilar to Southerns, what do you think they could learn from the way Southern has structured their fares? If you don't mind me asking that is.

Well Southern's fares structure is a bit of a mess because of competition with FCC (fares to Victoria etc) but the one thing that I think SWT could perhaps think about is whether they are driving customers away by charging too much on some of their flows. SWT is a more London based franchise than Southern so I understand their almost total pre-occupation with the London market. But there are a lot of people out there who might consider rail travel for their commutes or other trips to other places if it was more affordable. So i would respectfully suggest to SWT that they do a few tests and see if freezing or reducing a few fares might lead to an increase in volume (somewhere where they have some spare capacity). SWT generally strike me as competent but unadventurous.

 

[soil]

Except for commuter fares, most SWT fares are ludicrous IMO. E.g., Woking - Bournemouth CDR is £34.90 (10p less than the SDR), so for a family of 4 this is £105 to go to the beach.

You can cut this to £59.40 with a railcard, but that's going to be too much effort for most people.

There advances on this flow, but on e.g. Farnborough - Bournemouth (£32.20 CDR) there are no advances, so you are again looking at £97.

For something like Horsham - Bournemouth via Barnham (a similar distance), the CDR is only £20.

I don't find SWT fares viable for anything other than getting into London and local trips. For anything else, driving will be better - why wait for a train on a weekend, worry about engineering works, etc., when driving is cheaper and more comfortable?

 

[FenMan]

Plus Blackwater - Redhill - Clapham Junction - Waterloo

Useful info. Thanks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No only CLJ/WAT. The routeing maps are antiquated and includes the Reading - Kensington Olympia - Croydon service, which ran via Clapham Junction. Obviously part of the route can no longer be completed (I think the Parliamentary train may have been wthdrawn), but the section from Redhill to Clapham Junction is still in active use, and map WR includes the link to Waterloo, only.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=21
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=118

Once Clapham Junction is reached, all the other permitted routes from BAW to London (excepting Reading - Paddington) come back into play, so Victoria, London Bridge, Charing Cross etc become valid destinations. Who would ever know?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Once Clapham Junction is reached, all the other permitted routes from BAW to London (excepting Reading - Paddington) come back into play

Only on a season ticket, where you would be effectively stopping short on one route and starting short on a different one. On a non-season ticket you would need to keep to the entire mapped route.

 

[John @ home]

Plus Blackwater - Redhill - Clapham Junction - Waterloo

Or into London Bridge/Charing Cross?

No only CLJ/WAT. The routeing maps are antiquated and includes the Reading - Kensington Olympia - Croydon service, which ran via Clapham Junction. Obviously part of the route can no longer be completed (I think the Parliamentary train may have been wthdrawn), but the section from Redhill to Clapham Junction is still in active use, and map WR includes the link to Waterloo, only.

Blackwater is a member of Farnborough Group Routeing Point.
London Waterloo is a member of London Group Routeing Point.
Travel Blackwater - Waterloo is allowed by map combination CS+WR.

CS: Farnborough Group - Guildford - Dorking Group - Redhill Group - Croydon Group - Streatham Group - Clapham Jn.
WR: Clapham Jn - Waterloo.

If 'London Terminals' is the destination printed on the ticket, then continuation to London Bridge, Charing Cross etc. is allowed because the definitive source states that

Tickets issued for travel to/from London usually show 'London Terminals' as the destination/origin rather than naming a specific station. This is because the ticket is valid to more than one London Terminal station provided it’s on any reasonable line of route. Tickets can only be used on National Rail services. For example, a ticket from Brighton to London Terminals is valid to Victoria, Waterloo (changing at Clapham Junction), London Bridge, Blackfriars and City Thameslink or Charing Cross Waterloo East or Cannon Street (changing at London Bridge).

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/crossing_london.html#terminals

 

[Be3G]

Except for commuter fares, most SWT fares are ludicrous IMO. E.g., Woking - Bournemouth CDR is £34.90 (10p less than the SDR), so for a family of 4 this is £105 to go to the beach.

Presumably GroupSave would work to reduce the cost here to that of two adults (so about £70). I agree though that it's daft having such a small difference between the CDR and SDR prices!

 

[zoneking]

Good comparisons. It gets much more complicated when you include London travelcard zones, rather than London Terminals. The differences are not linear, as you would expect.

 

[johnnycache]

No only CLJ/WAT. The routeing maps are antiquated and includes the Reading - Kensington Olympia - Croydon service, which ran via Clapham Junction. Obviously part of the route can no longer be completed (I think the Parliamentary train may have been wthdrawn), but the section from Redhill to Clapham Junction is still in active use, and map WR includes the link to Waterloo, only.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=21
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf#page=118

Below I've set out my understanding of the permitted routes. It all seems a bit strange with Reading getting plain vanilla and Wokingham getting a flake and raspberry sauce

London-Reading
RG
WX

This just allows travel to Waterloo/Victoria via Hounslow/Richmond (WX) or Paddington via Slough (RG)

The route between Clapham Junction and Acton is also included in RG and that should allow a passenger to travel from Clapham Junction to Shepherd's Bush.

London-Ascot
RG+WX
WV
WX

RG+WX allows travel from Paddington to Reading via Slough and then back to Ascot

WX allows travel to Waterloo/Victoria via Hounslow/Richmond

WV (misleadingly called Reading to London via Surbiton but not including Reading on the map) allows travel via Chertsey and Weybridge

London-Ash Vale
WX+WW

Waterloo or Victoria to Ascot via Richmond or Hounslow then to Ash Vale via Frimley

Waterloo or Victoria to Woking via Wimbledon or Staines then to Ash Vale via Brookwood or Guildford

London-Wokingham
WV
WX
WR+CS

WX allows travel to Waterloo/Victoria via Hounslow/Richmond

WV allows travel via Chertsey and Weybridge

WR+CS

WR allows travel to Reading via Slough with CS covering Reading to Wokingham

WR allows Waterloo or Shepherd's Bush to Clapham Junction and CS then allows travel via East Croydon, Redhill and Guildford


Reading passengers would be well advised to buy a ticket from Wokingham for the same price

Have I got this right?