SWT trains experiment with not stopping two trains at Clapham Junction and Vauxhall

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by RichardN, 3 Jun 2015.

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  1. RichardN

    RichardN Member

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    http://m.journeycheck.com/southwest...001&webMsg=true&&engWorksPeriod=&serviceTime=

    Anybody know more detail about the background here? Are more passengers diverting onto Southern and changing at Clapham Junction? At a guess this is to put a couple of firebreaks into the service as longer dwells are accumulating delays. Do the trains continue to run on the slows but not stop? I don't understand how removing the stops can do much for station overcrowding though.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 3 Jun 2015
  2. HarleyDavidson

    HarleyDavidson Established Member

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    Time to wake up & smell the coffee. It has been like it for months & will continue until early July.

    Works quite well too.

    Although it doesn't stop delays either because it follows the 0628 (2D12) Guildford - Waterloo by just 3' if it's lucky and it will always catch it up and stop outside Vauxhall behind 2D12. It just takes some of the load of the other trains that's all.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jun 2015
  3. RichardN

    RichardN Member

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    Ahh, so is the reasoning to help with crowding at Wimbledon? I don't see how it can help at Clapham Junction or Vauxhall. I haven't come across this as I get off at Surbiton now.
     
  4. Deepgreen

    Deepgreen Established Member

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    I've not used either of these workings - how does the stock get to RPk - does it reverse between there and Motspur Park?
     
  5. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    RTT suggests that 2J90 (the 07:21 service) runs ECS from Guildford Down Sidings as 3J90.

    Similarly 2J92 (the 09:21 service) runs ECS from Hampton Court as 3J92.
     
  6. RichardN

    RichardN Member

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    I think the trains existed anyway, they've just removed stops from them.

    http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y43444/2015/08/03/advanced

    I can understand the rationale behind running crowd busters. Not sure how missing Clapham Junctiona and Vauxhall stops helps though. It can't possibly help at Clapham Junction. (Maybe the fact it is "fast" encourages people to use it as opposed to later or earlier services and later services are quieter)
     
    Last edited: 3 Jun 2015
  7. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    I imagine it saves having an extended dwell time caused by large numbers of passengers alighting at these stations.
     
  8. RichardN

    RichardN Member

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    Yes, rereading the web page, it is all about making the service reliable and makes no claims that it will improve crowding. Seems strange to me that they haven't experimented with removing just one stop.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jun 2015
  9. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR Established Member

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    I like it that SWT has passengers instead of 'customers'. See OP's quote.
     
  10. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    This has been on going for at least a couple of month. Does anyone know when the experiment will end or become permanent if successful.

    This isn't to help overcrowding St Clapham Junction or Vauxhall but to help stop the dwell times.

    There are services from the Windsor line from Clapham Junction and Vauxhall so people can use them.

    Nor sure how this affects people who actually wish to travel to Clapham Junction. There must be enough other trains to cater for them.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jun 2015
  11. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

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    The two trains being 'experimented' on are reliefs anyway, so I suppose technically those passengers aren't actually missing out
     
  12. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    February - as explained in the journey check extract in the first post. We had a thread about it around the time it started, IIRC:

    http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2084581#post2084581

    In the second post of that thread HarleyDavidson decided it wouldn't be effective... :D
     
  13. Dr_Paul

    Dr_Paul Member

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    A reply to the earlier thread put it well: 'So all they will do is sit on the signals protecting those stations and then crawl past the loaded platforms in front of passengers who want to go to Waterloo.'

    I remember when the Shepperton services via Kingston did not stop at Earlsfield or Vauxhall; they'd whizz through them, then slow to a crawl as they caught up with the preceding train. Sometimes at Vauxhall they'd not even go through at any speed, and would sometimes come to a halt. As this was in the days of 4-SUB and 4-EPB stock, passengers were able to alight if they so wished. Some other services also didn't stop at these stations, I think one was the service from Dorking.

    My dad remembers what were called 'non-stop' services on the District Line many years back. They would not stop at one or two stations, but would crawl through them, as the preceding trains had stopped there. He thinks this was done to try to deal with overcrowding at certain stations, but he's not sure.

    To digress slightly, these days, if a train is running late, it will occasionally run fast; the other Saturday an up service at Kingston was suddenly announced as running non-stop to Waterloo (it's usually all stations). A big rush off for those wishing to alight at other stations; a quick ride for those (including me) going to Waterloo. It went across to the up fast between Raynes Park and Wimbledon and went back on to the up slow just beyond the London end of Vauxhall. This seems to be a relatively new phenomenon, over the last few years or so.
     
  14. RichardN

    RichardN Member

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    So which stations see passengers left standing because the trains are completely full regularly? I know Clapham Junction does, though that has the benefit of a few passengers changing, so there are always going to be some that can board each train.

    I guess Earlsfield won't have many passengers alighting, so the problems might be worst there. Raynes Park and Wimbledon are also likely to have a number of people alighting, though probably nowhere near the numbers who want to board.

    Vauxhall is a significant driver of demand, probably more people alight there than at Clapham Junction. If I was just going to drop one station from those trains schedules, it would be Clapham Junction.
     
  15. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    To be fair to HarleyDavidson, the jury must to be out as they have only extended the experiment. Perhaps there isn't enough conclusive data either way yet.

    I'm surprised the term reliefs is still used. I'd have thought a daily week day train would simply be regarded as a regular service in its own right. Not that there is anything wrong with the term. It's nice to see old fashioned terms still in use now and again.

    What South West Trains could probably do with is reliefs for the relief services but unfortunately their isn't any room!
     
    Last edited: 4 Jun 2015
  16. NSEFAN

    NSEFAN Established Member

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    And this is where defensive driving comes in. Drivers on the route will learn to maintain a lower average speed to avoid chasing yellows because of the stopper in front. If the train is packed anyway then there'd be little point at stopping at the intermediate stations, as most people during the morning peak will be heading into Waterloo so it makes sense to have a few services which do this to mop up excess passengers at seemingly-random stations.
     
  17. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Given his role as a driver who is usually critical of anything at all SWT decide to do, I though his view was significant!
    I agree, I always thought 'reliefs' was a term usually reserved for irregular services that didn't run each working day - so a Friday evening extra (like FGW run) might be correctly termed a relief. Or a football extra that runs for specific matches etc.

    Yes the two trains in question are relatively new, but they are permanent additions to the timetable, announced as long ago as May 2012 as part of the 2nd CP4 HLOS train deal - i.e. the 456s. (I won't bother linking to the same press release yet again, I'm sure you'll have seen it by now.)
     
  18. Dr_Paul

    Dr_Paul Member

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    Just to clarify things, it's been quite some time since Shepperton services did not stop at Vauxhall and Earlsfield; practically all suburban services from Waterloo stop at every station these days. Vauxhall has become a far more used station than it was 40 years back (when I started commuting to London), and I think that most semi-fast outer-suburban services also stop there these days. An additional stairway was installed on platforms 7/8 to cope with the heavier use.
     
  19. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Except those from Woking during the morning high peak and the odd other train from Guildford.
     
  20. RichardN

    RichardN Member

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    When the LUL strike was on, and the Victoria line was not running south of Victoria, it was much easier to board at Clapham Junction, because more passengers were transferring to Southern services. What I don't have a feel for is how bad the situation is from Earlsfield and Wimbledon (I suspect it is even worse than Clapham Junction)

    If SWT dropped Vauxhall as a stop from all trains from Platform 9 at Clapham Junction in the morning peak, you'd move a lot of traffic from overused Victoria Line and SWT services onto quieter Southern Services to Victoria.

    Passengers who need to get to Vauxhall in its own, or want Southbound Victoria Line right could got there from platforms 3&4.

    I realise this won't happen...
     
    Last edited: 4 Jun 2015
  21. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    The problem with that is that Victoria underground station is packed with passengers and often in the morning closed or it use to be about 2 years ago when I use to pass through.

    They are extending the booking Hall which may help.

    When I use to travel on the Victoria line, I'd go down the stairs and carry on towards the District line. I'd then use the passageway from the district line ticket gates to reach the Victoria line. That would get me on to the Victoria line further down where more space existed on the platform and get me to the platform more quickly.

    It would take longer if the station was quiet but this was rush hour so quiet didn't come into it.
     
  22. HarleyDavidson

    HarleyDavidson Established Member

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    You can take power at Earlsfield, take the speed up to about 25, shut off and let it run, if you've done it right, it'll just roll, gain sufficient momentum and keep away from the preceding train, it's a 50/50 chance whether it will come to a stand or not.

    As for being critical about SWT, I'm only critical when they come up with some hairbrained scheme or idea that causes unnecessary delay or inconvenience.

    And I'm of the age where I can remember Guildford stoppers used to be fast from Wimbledon to Waterloo, the rot set in and they added Clapham Junction, then Vauxhall and finally Earlsfield. All of which just causes a general slow down and lower throughput, congestion and delays. Time for some significant rethinking & recasting of the timetable.
     
    Last edited: 5 Jun 2015
  23. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    The problem is so many people wish to travel from Wimbledon and Earlsfield, not to mention Clapham Junction.

    The fact so many trains can't stop at Clapham Junction during the peak is very annoying in this day and age when people go on about taking public transport instead of the car to get around. I do understand why it is the case but it's still annoying.
     
  24. HarleyDavidson

    HarleyDavidson Established Member

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    There's more than adequate provision for Clapham Junction, it's just the business mentality that needs to be worked on. In that working days and start times need to be staggered.

    And to say that it can't be done is rubbish, look at the railways and health services, emergency services etc. They all have staggered shifts and start times, if they didn't you wouldn't have the services you do.
     
  25. wimbledonpete

    wimbledonpete Member

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    I get the 07.21 every morning - since the Clapham and Vauxhall stops were removed timekeeping has been much better than it was. More and more people now wait for "the fast train" (even though it's not THAT fast) which takes some of the load off the 07.18 and 07.24 (the latter of which is *relatively* lightly loaded because it comes from Chessington) - presumably this means there's a better spread of people overall?

    Interesting that they keep extending the trial period - as it seems to be working well what would stop SWT from making it permanent?
     
  26. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    I think I read that this experiment tried in the 1960s and was a big flop.

    Now admittedly the office hours (in my experience) tends to be more flexible but is it really that much more flexible than it was in the 1960s?
     
  27. transmanche

    transmanche Established Member

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    It's been going on longer than that! Here's a London Transport poster from 1947:

    [​IMG]

    However, on the tube, there's barely a distinction between peak and off-peak services these days. The current Piccadilly line WTT shows the following number of trains in service:

    Mon-Fri 09:00 78 trains
    Mon-Fri 12:00 68 trains
    Mon-Fri 18:00 77 trains
    Mon-Fri 21:00 70 trains

    Sat 15:00 76 trains
    Sun 15:00 68 trains
     
  28. Antman

    Antman Established Member

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    Exactly, it has been talked about for as long as I can remember but has never caught on and realistically it never will.
     
  29. RichardN

    RichardN Member

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    Well I'd try and reinstate just the Vauxhall stop, as if this is an experiment, it would make sense to make the crowd buster as effective as it can be and the sense I get is Clapham Junction has the longer dwell time.
     
  30. backontrack

    backontrack Established Member

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    Do these still call at Queenstown Road?
     
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