Sydenham London [SYD]/Forest Hill [FOH] to London Terminals Season query

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by MollyT, 1 Aug 2012.

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  1. MollyT

    MollyT New Member

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    Hi all,

    I have what might appear to be a simple question, but I have no experience of specific station to london terminals tickets and so need a little help....

    I live in Forest Hill and change via London Bridge to get to Charing Cross every day for work. I never get the Overground, although I could use it and change at Canada Water to get into work. I used to use the tube as well so have been using a zones 1-3 travel card.

    My closest friends live one stop further out of London in Sydenham (on the same line and also in zone 3) and I visit them several times a week without paying any extra.

    I have decided to start using a train-only FOH to London Terminals season ticket to save nearly £50, losing the option to use the tube as I no longer use it enough to justify the extra money (and I very very rarely use buses).

    My question is, as a season ticket from Sydenham to London Terminals is the same cost as one from Forest Hill could I get away with purchasing a SYD ticket but using FOH as my primary station? The only way to get to London Bridge directly from Sydenham is through Forest Hill so I'm guessing this would count as an intermediary station and would therefore be allowed? I'm also hoping that there would be no issues in using the ticket to go the 1 stop between FOH and SYD via Southern services whenever I want to visit my friends.

    As an aside, if the above is possible, can I take it that I would only legally be allowed to use the Southern services between FOH and SYD and not the more frequent Overground ones that don't go to London Bridge? Or would any of the stations on the Overground also count as a London Terminal, allowing me to use those services (and occasionally going to Canada Water for Cinema purposes :lol:)? In my 6+ years in London I've only been ticket checked 4 times and 3 of those were on tubes so I could probably risk it, but I'd rather not given the fines involved.....

    Thanks for any help you can give me!
     
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  3. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Hi,

    You can use a Sydenham to London Terminals season ticket at Forest Hill if you so wish, by any train. You would not be able to use it at Canada Water however, as it's not on a permitted route between Sydenham and any London Terminal.
     
    Last edited: 1 Aug 2012
  4. MollyT

    MollyT New Member

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    Hi RJ,

    Thanks for the quick response! I didn't think I'd be able to swing getting to Canada Water every now and again (about once every 2 months), but good to know that I'll be able to visit friends in Sydenham on any service that comes, be it Southern or Overground.

    Thanks once again!
     
  5. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    In order to get maximum flexibility from your season ticket I advise that you buy a Crystal Palace - London Terminals ticket, this gives more available routes to London. (And it is the same price)
     
    Last edited: 1 Aug 2012
  6. big_dirt

    big_dirt Member

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    Given that there is a train which originates in Victoria, terminates in London Bridge and travels via Clapham Junction, could he purchase a ticket for Clapham Junction to London Terminals and travel from Forest Hill on that service?
     
  7. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    If you wish to have a ticket valid at London Bridge and Canada Water, I can suggest a season ticket from Sydenham to Hampstead Heath routed "Not Underground."

    It is valid from Sydenham - London Bridge, then via Blackfriars and St Pancras to West Hampstead, then on to Hampstead Heath.

    It is valid from Sydenham - Canada Water, then along the East London Line and then onto Hampstead Heath.

    Both routes are roughly the same distance at around 10 miles. It's a given that the shortest route (and any that are up to 3 miles longer) that can be taken by rail services is always valid.

    This price should be the same as a season ticket from Sydenham to London Terminals. This is because season tickets in London are priced by how many zones the intended route passes through. In this case, both your existing ticket and the one I suggest only use Zones 1 - 3, so *should* be the same price. An anomaly makes the one I suggest a bit cheaper however, at £21.30 a week.
     
    Last edited: 1 Aug 2012
  8. MollyT

    MollyT New Member

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    Hi all,

    Thanks for all the replies - I've picked up a monthly SYD to London Terminals ticket as my old travel card ran out yesterday, but I will certainly investigate all other suggestions!! I'm used to only getting a point A to point B ticket, so am completely new to intermediate station stopping, but it sounds like it could be a great option.

    Hope you all have a brilliant day.
     
  9. island

    island Established Member

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    You're welcome. For future reference, if you work Monday to Friday, look into purchasing season tickets for an odd period such as 1 month and 2 days, to give you validity for e.g. five weeks and avoid paying for the occasional weekend.
     
  10. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Forest Hill is not on a permitted route.

    You cannot start short if you are using Condition 13a(i).
     
  11. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    There is a direct rail service which follows a route permitted by the NRG, so I reckon it's valid!
     
  12. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    If you start short, you are no longer on a direct train between the origin and destination stated on your ticket.
     
  13. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I think map SC has been included as a valid map for use between Clapham Junction and London, solely because of that service. The map allows travel from Clapham - Streatham Hill - Crystal Palace - London Bridge. Forest Hill is even shown in the right place.

    As it's shown as a permitted route within the NRG, break of journey is allowed anywhere along that particular route.
     
  14. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    Clapham Junction is a routeing point.
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 15

    All London Terminals with the exception of Vauxhall are members of the London Group.
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 38

    Routeing permissions for Clapham Junction-London Group are: LB, LK, PD, SC and WX
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 189

    Map SC shows:
    Clapham Junction-Balham-Streatham Group (this includes Streatham Hill)-Gipsy Hill-Crystal Palace-Forest Hill-New Cross Gate-London Bridge
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/maps.pdf page 92

    Therefore, I conclude that a Clapham Juncton-London Terminals ticket would be valid to make a Forest Gate (or Sydenham)-London Bridge journey.

    Map LK includes:
    London Bridge-Waterloo-Charing Cross
    http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/maps.pdf page 59

    Therefore, I conclude that a Clapham Junction to London Terminals ticket would cover Molly's requirements. However, I feel I must stress that this validity is not obvious so would be likely to be questioned by ticket inspectors, and thus may result in extra hassle, such as appealing incorrectly issued penalty fares. There is only one person who can decide whether the savings would warrant the hassle.
     
  15. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    I would never have suggested that ticket for the OP's requirements - my suggestion was Sydenham to Hampstead Heath, which would give the desired dual availability at London Bridge and Canada Water plus break of journey rights at Forest Hill, without costing the earth.

    General loophole tickets are not what I'd advise and in any case, that ticket would not work the barriers at Forest Hill. I already upset the person on the gateline there by calling the police on them for refusing to let me through with a similar kind of ticket, so would certainly advise against it.
     
  16. bicbasher

    bicbasher Established Member

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    This will come in handy for Battersea Park pax who use the inner SLL which closes in December as the outer SLL will be the only direct service into London Bridge at no additional charge to season ticket holders.

    Just to add to MollyH's original enquiry, her SYD to London Terminals season is vaild on LOROL services between New Cross Gate and Crystal Palace.
     
  17. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    Big Dirt did suggest the ticket though and there was subsequent discussion. I wouldn't suggest it to somebody who didn't know the system inside out, hence my discalimer at the bottom.
     
  18. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Of course it is. I was not aware.

    The mind boggles. :roll:
     
  19. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Somehow, I suspect the validity may be changed. Southern have been known to be a bit funny about people going the "long way around" in the past and we recently had a forum member who couldn't resist forcing the idea of the generous validity of these tickets to someone who works with the Southern retail department. I expect to see a few changes made by the time the LO service starts.

    As it happens, I worked in Battersea, commuting along the SLL. Some very interesting, if somewhat illogical ticketing arrangements available from stations along that line :p
     
  20. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    I don't believe that the through train provision is NRCOC 13(a)i debars the entitlement to break ones journey.

    If we take as an example one of the long way round trains (where there is no mapped route) I believe that:

    -A Wakefield-Leeds ticket can be used to break at Brighouse
    -A Deptford-London Terminals ticket can be used to break at Slade Green
    -A clapham-London terminals ticket can be used to break at Hounslow

    PROVIDED THAT the train before the break and the train after the break are both 'through trains' from the origin to the destination.

    Note: I haven't checked easements for these three examples, as they may prohibit it.

    I am also happy to be corrected by other forum members, and would specifically be interested in the opinions of our resident loophole expert Mr RJ.
     
  21. island

    island Established Member

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    There is a negative easement for the Deptford one, basically journeys to/from/via London may not go via more than one of Slade Green, Barnehurst, or Crayford. There is however a compelling school of thought that one should not consult easements for a through train.
     
  22. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    Condition 13 states:
    "(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
    (i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;"
    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf page 10

    Note the wording 'a train'. If you break your journey, you will travel on two trains, thus not meeting the requirements of the condition.
     
  23. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    In this case, I would go by what the negative easement says. Those trains often have false destinations which are intended to discourage people going the long way round. I'm not convinced that they're shown in the NRT as through trains either, so the defence for doing so is at best, shaky. You know what I'm like, a*se covering with nothing less than a cast iron defence!
     
  24. Sieni

    Sieni New Member

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    Hi,

    I used to do something similar. My commute is between Honor Oak Park and Three Bridges. Three or four times a week I would stay on the train and go to London Bridge. I would buy an Honor Park to London Bridge return ticket at Three Bridges. Then I realised that if I bought a season ticket from London Bridge to Three Bridges it could work out cheaper. I checked the validity at London Bridge – they said OK and at Three Bridges, again OK. It became an issue when barriers were in stalled at Honor Oak Park – barriers wouldn’t open.
    Gate staff and ticket staff told me my ticket was not valid at Honor Oak Park. Ticket staff said to me ‘you live in Honor Oak Park you can’t use a ticket from London to Three Bridges’. On another occasion I was accused of trying to use the ticket as a Travelcard – I wasn’t – I’d read the rules and the routing guide and I understood what a permitted route was.
    Anyway wrote to Southern – first letter came back stating ticket NOT valid because there were no trains from Three Bridges to London Bridge that stopped at Honor Oak Park. I wrote back thanking them for their prompt response and then asked if my ticket was valid in the following scenario:
    Train from Three Bridges to Victoria – Change at East Croydon – get on ‘slow’ train to London Bridge that stops at Honor Oak Park.
    I then received another letter apologising for confusing information and confirming that my ticket was indeed valid at Honor Oak Park.
     
  25. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Many thanks. To keep my example simple, we'll ignore Deptford.

    Wakefield to Leeds via Brighouse is definitely shown thus in the timetables, and I'm pretty sure the Hounslow loop ones still are too.

    I respect your view. However, the words "on which you are able" don't equate to "a train on which you must remain"?

    So is your assertion that breaks of journey can only be made on mapped routes? What about the shortest route (if we have any examples of shortest routes which aren't mapped)?
     
  26. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    He did not claim that.
     
  27. clagmonster

    clagmonster Established Member

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    I see no problem with break of journey on the shortest route.

    I think there is nothing like the phrase "a train on which you must remain" so as to prevent break of journey being prohibited in cases where a direct train follows either the shortest route or a mapped route.
     
  28. bicbasher

    bicbasher Established Member

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    Good point, although that may penalise pax who use NXG to Sydenham. I remember when you'd pay extra to travel to Victoria from Forest Hill until the travelcard zone at Crystal Palace was changed from zone 4 to 3/4.
     
  29. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Time will tell! I suspect Southern would like the pax who travel from London via Sydenham to be paying the Zone 1-3 season ticket price, which is £22.00 for a 7DS.
     
  30. BOBmcbob

    BOBmcbob Member

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    I used to use a London Bridge - London Victoria season ticket from Sydenham for 18 months or so.

    I wouldn't advise it unless you are clued up on the regs and are prepared to fight your corner.

    FYI It doesn't open any of the barriers except for the Londion Terminals (including Charing Cross)- I asked Southern to get this changed, but they came back with the arguement that it was only valid via Peckham Rye....

    However once I'd persuaded the chap at Sydenham gateline that it was valid to travel on this using the loop train, I had no issues.
     
  31. RJ

    RJ Established Member

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    Both the origin and destination have a common routing point, so the only permitted line of route is the shortest one which has a regular rail service.

    There is a direct rail service between the two stations via Sydenham, so you're at liberty to use that service. Whether or not you can break your journey along that line of route is the problem area. I wouldn't upset the apple cart trying to get ATOC to provide a decisive answer to that. If clued up on rules and regs, you shouldn't have any problem finding better season tickets that will cover what you want to do!
     
    Last edited: 6 Aug 2012
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