T Key Locks

[E_Reeves]

Hi all,

I have just seen a video where a member of the public opens up a guard panel in the vestibule of an EMU to make a stupid announcement , but it looked like he used a random key or a bit of metal, not a T key. I always thought you needed a T key, but I'm not too sure now.

Is it really safe for these locks to be unlocked so easily as people can access areas they're not supposed to be in?

Thanks

 

[TheEdge]

"Older" T Key locks can just be jimmied open with anything that will turn them. Newer ones have "a feature" that means only a proper T-key, railway issued, can open them, even an older T Key won't be able to open them.

I think gradually the T Key is falling out of use anyway on newer stock for exactly this reason, BR1B keys are a more secure alternative used elsewhere.

 

[jon0844]

"Older" T Key locks can just be jimmied open with anything that will turn them. Newer ones have "a feature" that means only a proper T-key, railway issued, can open them, even an older T Key won't be able to open them.

I think gradually the T Key is falling out of use anyway on newer stock for exactly this reason, BR1B keys are a more secure alternative used elsewhere.

700s use T keys for everything, but accessing the cab from the inside.

 

[robbeech]

"Older" T Key locks can just be jimmied open with anything that will turn them. Newer ones have "a feature" that means only a proper T-key, railway issued, can open them, even an older T Key won't be able to open them.

A feature, it’s not the most difficult obstacle to overcome sadly.

 

[Jonfun]

Neeer T-Key locks with the bit in the middle are actually easier to open than ones without as it's easier to get leverage on whatever flat implement you choose to open the thing.

Anything of any value or importance should rrally be secured using something more resistant against unauthorised entry.

 

[Hyphen]

In my experience* an ABS key, inserted at 45° to the lock, is about the right size and has enough strength to open the lock.

Definitely won't work on the newer ones with a centre pin though!

* the limit of my experience being a need to fold out the baby changing table on a HST

 

[trainmania100]

A lot of guards on southern 313s leave their door panels open. Also most 313s I've been on, the back cab door is open. The conductor can usually be found in the back for customers looking to buy a ticket

 

[whhistle]

Although didn't someone suggest the T-key was simply a way of keeping cabinets closed rather than something for security?
Seems wild, but I guess train manufacutrers just used the locks then for everything.

Shame they didn't introduce a new standard from the recent selection of trains...

 

[jon0844]

Although didn't someone suggest the T-key was simply a way of keeping cabinets closed rather than something for security?
Seems wild, but I guess train manufacutrers just used the locks then for everything.

Shame they didn't introduce a new standard from the recent selection of trains...

Whatever comes in, people will get a key from somewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hi all,

I have just seen a video where a member of the public opens up a guard panel in the vestibule of an EMU to make a stupid announcement , but it looked like he used a random key or a bit of metal, not a T key. I always thought you needed a T key, but I'm not too sure now.

Is it really safe for these locks to be unlocked so easily as people can access areas they're not supposed to be in?

FWIW, my house key will open windows on Class 166s. This has been useful quite frequently where the on board temperature was getting well in excess of 25 degrees due to the utter uselessness of the so-called air conditioning system; obviously with DOO one cannot ask the guard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my experience* an ABS key, inserted at 45° to the lock, is about the right size and has enough strength to open the lock.

...my house key being precisely that!

 

[swaldman]

Although didn't someone suggest the T-key was simply a way of keeping cabinets closed rather than something for security?
Seems wild, but I guess train manufacutrers just used the locks then for everything.

The railway "staff key" is just a larger version of a similar tool that's used for cabinets everywhere. In my electrical days we used to call them "stab keys". I've always assumed that their use dated from days when it was assumed that people wouldn't meddle with things that they knew they shouldn't. It serves well to dissuade casual fiddling but if somebody is determined, even if they can't bodge it, I don't imagine that the keys are terribly hard to obtain.

That said, most of the door panels that I've noticed (though I can't say I've made a habit of peering at them) have a T-key to open the panel but require an actual key to be used before they can be operated. Don't know how universal that is...

 

[ThomasBF01]

Years ago, I made my own. I used the square bar from a standard household door that moves the handle on both sides.
Great for the locks that didn't have the metal plate in front of them, but with a few minutes on a bench grinder, grinding the other end about 1-2cm in from the end of the bar back into a 'rough' round, I found I could open the panels that have the metal plate.
Then I actually found an issued key and this had a key to unlock the heating or air conditioning panel on MkII or MkIII carriages. It was like a tube with a small notch on the inside.
I remember flushing the toilet from the outside whilst somebody was using it. This was when I was around 12. I'm glad to say, I have grown up (only a little) since then!

 

[Trackman]

The railway "staff key" is just a larger version of a similar tool that's used for cabinets everywhere. In my electrical days we used to call them "stab keys". I've always assumed that their use dated from days when it was assumed that people wouldn't meddle with things that they knew they shouldn't. It serves well to dissuade casual fiddling but if somebody is determined, even if they can't bodge it, I don't imagine that the keys are terribly hard to obtain.

That said, most of the door panels that I've noticed (though I can't say I've made a habit of peering at them) have a T-key to open the panel but require an actual key to be used before they can be operated. Don't know how universal that is...

Some units have lock out panel switches (T-Key) or a 2 tier key system to activate the panel (like you say) to stop this kind of thing happening.
I thought it was a universal thing too.

 

[whhistle]

It's like standard station bin keys.
You can pick them up from Wilko for £2.50 as the same locks are found on household electrical and gas meters (if they're outside).

 

[pt_mad]

Is there anywhere that sells the smaller version of the square T Key (with the hole in)? The version that can go on your keyring? Seems to have been done away with since BR.

 

[Scotrail84]

Is there anywhere that sells the smaller version of the square T Key (with the hole in)? The version that can go on your keyring? Seems to have been done away with since BR.

You shouldn't be able to buy any railway related keys that could breach security measures, nor should any non railway employee be in possession of any railway keys.

 

[route:oxford]

You shouldn't be able to buy any railway related keys that could breach security measures, nor should any non railway employee be in possession of any railway keys.

There are lots of things in life that you probably shouldn't be able to buy readily.

I've got a full set of L&F master keys as a consequence of an idiot colleague dropping the regular office keys down the loo after pressing flush. A local locksmith sold me the set, but my then employer refused to reimburse me as I didn't go through the formal procurement process - so I kept them.

It means I can just about open every filing cabinet, every desk drawer, every office cupboard and locker from a selection of 6 keys. It's suprising the number of people who think that a filing cabinet is a secure place to keep stuff.

 

[bramling]

You shouldn't be able to buy any railway related keys that could breach security measures, nor should any non railway employee be in possession of any railway keys.

In the real world shouldn’t is not the same as can’t...

 

[jopsuk]

Fundamentally a square bit of metal with a hole up the middle isn't a secure key.

Any key with more than a couple of copies in existence isn't a secure key

 

[atraindriver]

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[antharro]

I think gradually the T Key is falling out of use anyway on newer stock for exactly this reason, BR1B keys are a more secure alternative used elsewhere.

BR1B keys seem to be available for purchase by the general public, so are they really that much more secure? Maybe they are only by the fact that they need to be bought, whereas as has been stated, a T lock can be opened with a screwdriver.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Wouldn't the unauthorised sale and possession of official keys be construed as theft or handling stolen goods ? Certain train operators Fraud teams do trawl the internet for such stuff although admittedly convictions are few and far between.

 

[atraindriver]

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[pt_mad]

T Key must be considered sort of secure to some extent as it can often activate a close doors or RA indicator.

 

[whhistle]

You shouldn't be able to buy any railway related keys that could breach security measures.

You should tell Wilko, B&Q, Wickes, Screwfix... any other DIY retailer they shouldn't be selling the bin keys then!

 

[pompeyfan]

I think a double measure should be mandatory. From previous discussions, southern’s 377s need a T key and then another Yale style key, and the 707s need a BR1 key as well as a T key.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

The point of T-keys nowadays is that they're cheap, relatively sturdy and stop the majority of fiddlers or common vandals from getting into stuff they shouldn't. If someone is determined enough, they'll be able to get one.

If something is mission critical, then it should be behind a BR1 key or something that is a bit harder to get a hold of.

 

[cjmillsnun]

The point of T-keys nowadays is that they're cheap, relatively sturdy and stop the majority of fiddlers or common vandals from getting into stuff they shouldn't. If someone is determined enough, they'll be able to get one.

If something is mission critical, then it should be behind a BR1 key or something that is a bit harder to get a hold of.

Sadly they aren’t that difficult to get hold of. They appear on eBay all the time.

 

[43096]

nor should any non railway employee be in possession of any railway keys.

Really?

What about volunteers at a preserved line, then? They are not employees, but have a legitimate reason for having railway keys.