T & W Metro reducing services on 29 Nov. Not enough drivers!!

[hacman]

To be honest I think that Nexus would be better off recruiting staff aged over 50, to dissuade others from poaching.

Aside from being unlawful, there are a number of reasons why this would be a really bad idea.

Recruiting from a pool of over 50s you're far less likely to find suitable numbers who both meet all the requirements for the job and can pass the medical without any issues, and you're then exclusively recruiting a workforce who have a limited number of years left before they will want to retire, or at the very least go part-time.

Furthermore, you may find drivers over the age of 50 who are starting to actively consider what their retirement looks like are more likely to jump ship once trained. While younger drivers will be considering any new position in terms of both the wider package, job security and career progression; over 50s are far more likely to just consider the bottom line and any pension arrangements which may rapidly boost their retirement income.

The long term costs of this approach would end up far outweighing any benefits in terms of potential retention.

 

[MotCO]

I heard on LBC Radio this morning that there are loads of Crossrail drivers being paid when Crossrail hasn't opened yet. (Yes, I know that the western and eastern branches are running in part, but don't let these fcts get in the way of a news story.) So why not send some of them up to Newcastle for a month or so - I'm sure there would be some takers. Would type and route training take that long?

 

[hacman]

I heard on LBC Radio this morning that there are loads of Crossrail drivers being paid when Crossrail hasn't opened yet. (Yes, I know that the western and eastern branches are running in part, but don't let these fcts get in the way of a news story.) So why not send some of them up to Newcastle for a month or so - I'm sure there would be some takers. Would type and route training take that long?

In all honesty, it's likely not worth the effort.

The system and rolling stock here is very different, and by the time you have got the people up here, completed their route learning and traction training, the new recruits will be ready.

 

[philthetube]

Aside from being unlawful, there are a number of reasons why this would be a really bad idea.

Recruiting from a pool of over 50s you're far less likely to find suitable numbers who both meet all the requirements for the job and can pass the medical without any issues, and you're then exclusively recruiting a workforce who have a limited number of years left before they will want to retire, or at the very least go part-time.

Furthermore, you may find drivers over the age of 50 who are starting to actively consider what their retirement looks like are more likely to jump ship once trained. While younger drivers will be considering any new position in terms of both the wider package, job security and career progression; over 50s are far more likely to just consider the bottom line and any pension arrangements which may rapidly boost their retirement income.

The long term costs of this approach would end up far outweighing any benefits in terms of potential retention.

Paragraph by paragraph,

Although it is unlawful, current policy is probably not to recruit any of that age group, this could be chnged

I am sure there are plenty of people available who are suitable, probably if only one in 50 applicants were suitable and fit that would be enough. 15 years out of a staff member would be far better than five out of a younger person who then moves on, which seems to be the issue.

Although many current train drivers do look at retirement once over 50, this does not apply to a large proportion of the population who may not have final salary pensions etc. Also pension benefits have to be earned, joining the job for the benefits and leaving after 1 year would provide pennies of a pension, the only exception being death in service benefit which is not a good reason for taking any job.

Not sure about costs, you would need to review average service periods and also performance of different age groups

 

[ModernRailways]

Paragraph by paragraph,

Although it is unlawful, current policy is probably not to recruit any of that age group, this could be chnged

I am sure there are plenty of people available who are suitable, probably if only one in 50 applicants were suitable and fit that would be enough. 15 years out of a staff member would be far better than five out of a younger person who then moves on, which seems to be the issue.

Although many current train drivers do look at retirement once over 50, this does not apply to a large proportion of the population who may not have final salary pensions etc. Also pension benefits have to be earned, joining the job for the benefits and leaving after 1 year would provide pennies of a pension, the only exception being death in service benefit which is not a good reason for taking any job.

Not sure about costs, you would need to review average service periods and also performance of different age groups

They could retain the young drivers they're taking on by simply bringing pay in line with other TOCs. A 50 year old that can work for Metro can also then go work for a mainline TOC so age doesn't play a role at all. Someone of an older age is also at an arguably higher risk of issues arising due to ill health and the effects of long term sickness. If they just employed the correct people, and gave them the correct training and didn't rush them into service, put them under pressure, and also pay them less than other TOCs (even for a driver instructor), why would you stick around. The pay and benefits are terrible and people won't want to stick around for that.

 

[hacman]

Paragraph by paragraph,

Although it is unlawful, current policy is probably not to recruit any of that age group, this could be chnged

I am sure there are plenty of people available who are suitable, probably if only one in 50 applicants were suitable and fit that would be enough. 15 years out of a staff member would be far better than five out of a younger person who then moves on, which seems to be the issue.

Although many current train drivers do look at retirement once over 50, this does not apply to a large proportion of the population who may not have final salary pensions etc. Also pension benefits have to be earned, joining the job for the benefits and leaving after 1 year would provide pennies of a pension, the only exception being death in service benefit which is not a good reason for taking any job.

Not sure about costs, you would need to review average service periods and also performance of different age groups

Paragraph by paragraph, as you say:

There are currently no solely age-based restrictions on intake (with the exception of not hiring minors). You can't do this, in either direction - you have to be able to demonstrate that an individual candidate is not suitable in some meaningful way. There are a number of older drivers on the network currently, and whilst they're mostly long-serving staff this is more a reflection on the fact that very few people seek a major change in career so late in life. If a 50+-year-old applies and meets the criteria currently, they will be considered based on merit, just the same as any other candidate (though sadly due to the exceptionally high standards from a medical perspective, many may be ruled out).

Arguably a 50-year-old who is later on in life and may not require the same job security and other aspects as, for example, a younger person with a family to support, and therefore may actually represent more of a flight risk. Age is not a good indicator as to the potential duration of an employees service. (I'm speaking from experience as a hiring manager and department head in several companies here.)

Whilst purely monetary pension benefits have to be earned, you have to remember that jobs in the rail industry often come with other benefits beyond an employer-provided pension that will transition with the employee into retirement as part of their pension "package" - such as free/discount travel, medical cover, etc. Given that these are also high salary jobs, and that any pension contributions are taxed at the point of draw-down not earning, it's very possible for the pension benefits offered in such a role to have a very meaningful impact on the employee's retirement income over such a short period. Think voluntary employee contributions (perhaps with matched employer contributions), the effect on tax bands, etc.

As ModernRailways says, the solution to this is to fix the actual problem and address the reasons staff leave so quickly. You can't fix these kinds of retention issues by putting weird policies in place to recruit from certain pools of workers who will tolerate poor conditions and management nonsense better than others - the issue will always keep coming back.

 

[Scott M]

That's the thing though, it doesn't cost more really. The cost of training and recruiting new drivers costs a fortune, you then have the fact that inexperienced drivers are out there having been rushed through training and then errors occur - INDUSI applications, delays as new drivers don't know how to handle certain conditions. The driver trainers are also still new (average seems to be 4/5 years at Metro) and so as mentioned (nothing of their own doing) they don't know the ins and outs of the system as well as someone who has been here longer. You have a lot of drivers now who are young and want to progress in their careers, Metro doesn't give much opportunity in that.

There is definitely some truth in this. As a regular commuter I’m used to the occasional emergency brake application during leaf fall season, usually in the same areas (eg approaching Gateshead Stadium P2 seems to be a hot spot), but a few weeks ago between Pelaw and Tyne Dock it was applied on approach to every single station and we didn’t get up to speed once. Not a driver so perhaps conditions were just particularly bad on that night, but it did just feel like the driver was struggling to control the train and perhaps that is a reflection of the current training.

Out of curiosity, when you mention errors resulting in INDUSI applications, are these all related to struggling to cope with leaf fall season or are there other gaps in knowledge?

 

[greyman42]

Although many current train drivers do look at retirement once over 50, this does not apply to a large proportion of the population who may not have final salary pensions etc. Also pension benefits have to be earned, joining the job for the benefits and leaving after 1 year would provide pennies of a pension, the only exception being death in service benefit which is not a good reason for taking any job.

It is not unusual for people to retire early, and when they find it is not all it is cracked up to be, look to return to work.

 

[philthetube]

The issue is that the job is not worth as much as driving for a long distance company, both because that is what most people want to do, this will always be a problem as long as companies are allowed to poach, solutions need to be fount to either pass on the training costs or prevent poaching.

Until this happens this will always be a problem

So far as the arguments I made, they are all arguments with points for and against.

 

[Lonewolf32]

When metro had their last pay negotiations, there was dispute over pay and conditions. Makes you wonder what conditions were being debated and how much pay/what changes would need to be implemented to retain the staff they are losing. Don't think metro would ever be in a position to offer a salary mainline operators provide.

 

[railfan249]

The issue is that the job is not worth as much as driving for a long distance company, both because that is what most people want to do, this will always be a problem as long as companies are allowed to poach, solutions need to be fount to either pass on the training costs or prevent poaching.

Until this happens this will always be a problem

So far as the arguments I made, they are all arguments with points for and against.

Why do you believe it isn't worth as much? Purely because there is less driving distance involved?

 

[philthetube]

Difficult question when I think about it.

This sort of job has always been lower paid on the railway and I suppose that is largely how I formed my opinion, this didn't use to be a problem as promotion was available.

There are probably some things which make things easier than doing long distance work.

Lower speeds are more relevant than distance, the work will largely be line of sight rather than needing the extensive line knowledge required on faster lines, thus less line knowledge required.

The value of a job is what people are prepared to do it for, however this is skewed when others are prepared to pay more for people to do the same job, but not pay for the training.

Even if the same wages were paid I don't think that would fully resolve the situation.

 

[Lonewolf32]

This also doesn't instill much confidence in those who have applied to join metro. People are less likely to want to leave a previous job to work for metro if there are clear issues with their working practices. Yes there will always be people wanting to join the rail industry but you don't want a "jumping out if the frying pan into the fire" scenario if there are doubts about how long you're actually going to last in a new job before having to look to move on if you are not seeing it as a stepping stone to other high paying companies and wanting to make a long term career out of it.

 

[philthetube]

I suspect that Metro conditions will be far superior to conditions offered in most other jobs, just not as good as other train operators.

 

[jkkne]

I suspect that Metro conditions will be far superior to conditions offered in most other jobs, just not as good as other train operators.

indeed and the salary offered would comfortably put you in the ‘comfortable’ position up here on Tyneside.

 

[hacman]

I suspect that Metro conditions will be far superior to conditions offered in most other jobs, just not as good as other train operators.

indeed and the salary offered would comfortably put you in the ‘comfortable’ position up here on Tyneside.

I'm not entirely sure of the relevance of this. If someone has the skills to obtain better pay and conditions than they currently have, it's their right to pursue that, and they shouldn't be judged harshly for doing so.

The fact that train drivers (even for Metro) have much better pay than the North East average and several other key industries is more a scathing reflection upon the general state of the regions labour market (and the way our society has come to view certain jobs in general).

 

[60074]

I can’t understand why the unions aren’t pushing for T&W drivers to get an ETDL. Surely formal certification would have T&W drivers feeling a lot more valued and less would jump ship at the earliest opportunity to go mainline and get their licence? Same psychometrics but a different outcome seems unfair to me

 

[philthetube]

There is no judgement in what I, or I suspect jkkne are saying, the issue is that once the training is paid for then others can poach the drivers leaving a bill for the Metro.

This thread gives a view into the issues.

Avanti West Coast recruiting QUALIFIED DRIVER TALENT POOL ONLY at London Euston, Liverpool, Manchester, and Wolverhampton depots. (Posted 1/2-09-2020)

As above Avanti west coast high speed TOC recruiting for qualified drivers talent pools only at Euston, Manchester, Wolverhampton, and Liverpool depots only. 1599060302 London Euston depot advert closes 15/09/2020. Advert for the other three depots mentioned closes 16/09/2020. FYI.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[the sniper]

I can’t understand why the unions aren’t pushing for T&W drivers to get an ETDL. Surely formal certification would have T&W drivers feeling a lot more valued and less would jump ship at the earliest opportunity to go mainline and get their licence? Same psychometrics but a different outcome seems unfair to me

Surely an ETDL, if anything, would only make it easier for them to leave...? But they're seemingly able to leave anyway, so what is the value of the ETDL, other than having a 'cool' bit of plastic to show your non-railway friends?

 

[60074]

Surely an ETDL, if anything, would only make it easier for them to leave...? But they're seemingly able to leave anyway, so what is the value of the ETDL, other than having a 'cool' bit of plastic to show your non-railway friends?

In my eyes the ‘cool’ bit of plastic is irrelevant?

T&W Drivers have repeatedly been on strike over pay to be in line with other TOCs, they are constantly being knocked down with the view that they’re not “proper drivers”. If the unions were able to secure T&W drivers ETDLs then that would stay with the driver themselves, not the company. In my eyes, that would mean that the union would have a stronger argument for better pay and conditions, as they’d be officially recognised by the ORR as qualified train drivers?

Just some food for thought..

 

[notadriver]

W

In my eyes the ‘cool’ bit of plastic is irrelevant?

T&W Drivers have repeatedly been on strike over pay to be in line with other TOCs, they are constantly being knocked down with the view that they’re not “proper drivers”. If the unions were able to secure T&W drivers ETDLs then that would stay with the driver themselves, not the company. In my eyes, that would mean that the union would have a stronger argument for better pay and conditions, as they’d be officially recognised by the ORR as qualified train drivers?

Just some food for thought..

Which TOCs do not recognise T+W drivers as qualified drivers ?

 

[60074]

Which TOCs do not recognise T+W drivers as qualified drivers ?

Northern and LNER for starters?
The new open access ECTL refer to them as “part-qualified”

There’s multiple threads on here with the tiresome debate about T&W drivers

 

[whoosh]

I heard on LBC Radio this morning that there are loads of Crossrail drivers being paid when Crossrail hasn't opened yet. (Yes, I know that the western and eastern branches are running in part, but don't let these fcts get in the way of a news story.) So why not send some of them up to Newcastle for a month or so - I'm sure there would be some takers. Would type and route training take that long?

You want Crossrail Drivers to have their return train tickets to Newcastle paid for, their hotel paid for, and their meals paid for, to still not drive Crossrail trains on the Crossrail route?

"But that's better value for money than paying them to do nothing," said Mr Super Dooper Manager!

 

[hacman]

You want Crossrail Drivers to have their return train tickets to Newcastle paid for, their hotel paid for, and their meals paid for, to still not drive Crossrail trains on the Crossrail route?

"But that's better value for money than paying them to do nothing," said Mr Super Dooper Manager!

And just imagine the backlash from the unions over this too!

 

[whoosh]

And just imagine the backlash from the unions over this too!

Indeed, can you imagine?!

"Crossrail drivers parachuted in on £62k + expenses, to cover driver shortage when NEXUS refuse to pay more than £40k."