Take the Car, Not the Train!

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313103

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Well so says the MD of Stagecoach South West Trains Mr T Shoveller. Sorry i thought the games was sold to the people of this country to use public transport not the private motor vehicle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-18874000

BBC said:
London 2012: Rail bosses urge spectators to drive to Weymouth

Rail bosses have recommended that spectators travelling to the Olympic sailing events in Weymouth go by car.


South West Trains has warned there could be significant disruption during the Games, with an extra 80,000 passengers a day on its network.

The firm will provide extra services as it runs at up to 40% extra capacity.
But the limited power supply on the line to Weymouth, which was electrified in the 1980s and has a single track on part of it, will affect services.

South West Trains managing director Tim Shoveller said: "We'll be running diesel because we can't run electric because of the power supply problem so the park-and-ride is the primary way people are being advised to get to Weymouth for the sailing."

Asked if South West Trains could be overwhelmed, he replied: "Yes, we will just have to be honest with passengers." (read more)

I don't think I would want to get off at Bournemouth and use a bus instead, Are SWT going to give discounted fare to those who will have to change for buses? I doubt it.
 
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Pugwash

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Well so says the MD of Stagecoach South West Trains Mr T Shoveller. Sorry i thought the games was sold to the people of this country to use public transport not the private motor vehicle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-18874000

I dont think i would want to get off at Bournemouth and use a bus instead, Are SWT going to give discounted fare to those who will have to change for buses? I doubt it.

In the days of BR I suspect there would have been a loco hauled train available for the extra traffic, in the days of outsourcing / franchising, Train leasing with commercial concerns above all others this is sadly not the case.
 

Roylang

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Well so says the MD of Stagecoach South West Trains Mr T Shoveller. Sorry i thought the games was sold to the people of this country to use public transport not the private motor vehicle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-18874000

I dont think i would want to get off at Bournemouth and use a bus instead, Are SWT going to give discounted fare to those who will have to change for buses? I doubt it.

Seems like a fairly honest statement of what is likely to happen to me. What would people prefer, SWT say all will be ok when they do not think it will be?

I am sorry but the lack of infrastructure to support a more intensive service for a short period is hardly SWT fault in this case.

Roy
 
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Seems like a fairly honest statement of what is likely to happen to me. What would people prefer, SWT say all will be ok when they do not think it will be?

I am sorry but the lack of infrastructure to support a more intensive service for a short period is hardly SWT fault in this case.

Roy

Very fair comment.

I know Ashford International are gearing up for pandemonium with holding pens, multiple queueing areas and have allegedly sent all season ticket holders letters telling them to leave for work up to 3 hours early!
 

JohnB57

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Well so says the MD of Stagecoach South West Trains Mr T Shoveller. Sorry i thought the games was sold to the people of this country to use public transport not the private motor vehicle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-18874000

I dont think i would want to get off at Bournemouth and use a bus instead, Are SWT going to give discounted fare to those who will have to change for buses? I doubt it.
So you're one of the people who think that huge additional financial resources should have been allocated to a marginal event in an outlying area like this one? When people like Barry Doe, who doesn't even drive, are defending the economics of the status quo, I think maybe the rail lobby, which I count myself amongst, has run out of steam - pun intended.

The reality is that most of the country simply cannot function on one mode of transport alone and there are times, like this, when private transport actually functions best. And I speak as a rail enthusiast, but one who has to drive to the nearest railway station, as viable public transport does not exist.

We need joined up thinking in order to maximise the benefit of each mode, not straight-line "rail/bus/car is best".
 

Oscar

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Would it not make sense for SWT to run a frequent bus service to Weymouth from Bournemouth or wherever is an appropriate railhead with more capacity? What about a special offer for those willing to change to the bus? Alternatively, could the DfT not have invested in the appropriate infrastructure for a more frequent service to Weymouth which could then encourage local residents in the longer term to use the railway more frequently?
Admittedly the latter is not realistic and I am certainly no expert but surely some questions need to be asked.
 

ChristopherJ

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Tim S**t Shoveller wrote:

Asked if South West Trains could be overwhelmed, he replied: "Yes, we will just have to be honest with passengers."



The UK operates a railway network of which the infrastructure is designed to a specification to cover minimum requirements and nothing more, any surge in capacity or demand and it falls over. I believe the correct technical terms for this state are cheap and bodged.

On just a normal day, we operate too many trains on too little capacity, trying to transport too many people to too many places, all at once.

Face it. I know the Olympics is going to choke itself to death. You know the Olympics is going to choke itself to death, oh come on... don't lie to yourself - we both know you're thinking it in the back of your head. :p

In just over a weeks time, I'm going to sit back, relax and watch the chaos unfold whilst not giving the slightest 'Donald Duck'... <D
 
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The UK operates a railway network of which the infrastructure is designed to a specification to cover minimum requirements and nothing more, any surge in capacity or demand and it falls over. I believe the correct technical terms for this state are cheap and bodged.

I refer to this as being economical for normal usage.

Would you prefer all stations were platformed to accept 15 car trains and the ticket prices were raised accordingly just for the odd occassion when they may be needed?
 

ChristopherJ

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I refer to this as being economical for normal usage.

Would you prefer all stations were platformed to accept 15 car trains and the ticket prices were raised accordingly just for the odd occassion when they may be needed?

I would prefer if we had an arsenal of infrastructure and rolling stock that doesn't collapse under the slightest bit of pressure.

There's no implemented strategy for fall back when things go wrong, everything on the modern railway is planned to operate in a perfect state, the slightest bump to the service and the affects are felt miles away with no accord to recovery or resistance.

Glad to see that all those millions of pounds spent on upgrading the electrical supply of the former Southern Region to accept Desiro and Electrostar trains has proved its worth... Looking back now and the mere advantages that it has bought it would of just been more worthwhile to utilise the dual voltage capabilities of these modular trains and install 25kv AC OHLE from new on the sections that required upgrades rather than a complete universal upgrade of the existing 750v DC...

Anyhow, that's another story, back to the Olympics shambles...
 
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andykn

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I refer to this as being economical for normal usage.

Would you prefer all stations were platformed to accept 15 car trains and the ticket prices were raised accordingly just for the odd occassion when they may be needed?

Build it and they will come. The West London Line had 2 trains a day 20 years ago, now they're having to extend the platforms on the new stations they only built a couple of years ago.
 

tbtc

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Rail consultant Barry Doe said: "There was no financial justification whatsoever to run anything longer than five [train] cars to Weymouth.

"Trains that length are never required west of Wareham, apart from something like the Olympics, which let's face it, is something like three weeks every 150 years - it's the equivalent of suddenly building a motorway to Weymouth, just for the three weeks."

Mr Doe is right - do people honestly expect the line to be significantly upgraded at a cost of millions just for a short sailing event?

It's going to be a real squeeze on the finite capacity that SWT have, they are dealing with it in an honest way. Credit to Stagecoach.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Build it and they will come. The West London Line had 2 trains a day 20 years ago, now they're having to extend the platforms on the new stations they only built a couple of years ago.

The West London line has seen stable growth on a gradual basis over many years.

The sailing in Weymouth is a three week surge in demand which won't happen again in our lifetime.

It'd be more realistic to build a new High Speed line to Glastonbury to cater for the festival go-ers.
 

Aldaniti

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I had to laugh at Barry Doe's analogy of 'it would be like building a new motorway'. A good example of opening mouth before engaging brain. A more accurate analogy would be to suggest that the bus industry lays on lots more coaches for the event, but then that would severely undermine Doe's argument. I've read Barry's articles from time to time and often find them interesting but that sort of nonsense makes him look a little foolish.
 

tbtc

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I had to laugh at Barry Doe's analogy of 'it would be like building a new motorway'. A good example of opening mouth before engaging brain. A more accurate analogy would be to suggest that the bus industry lays on lots more coaches for the event, but then that would severely undermine Doe's argument. I've read Barry's articles from time to time and often find them interesting but that sort of nonsense makes him look a little foolish.

Well, to cope with capacity they'd need to (at least) double the number of tracks with a significant upgrade to the substations that feed the line to cope with the surge in demand for electricity. In infrastructure terms, that's not far off.

It's a lot more complicated than just phoning the modern day version of Fraser Eagle and asking for some spare coaches/buses.
 
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All Tim's done is to tacitly admit that the Bournemouth - Weymouth electrification was, like Redhill - Tonbridge and the E.C.M.L. was carried out on the cheap by B.R.
 

yorksrob

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Wouldn't the restricted power supply have originally been built to cope with eight carriage trains (west of Poole) rather than the twelve that the mainline to London could cope with, so the five carriage limit is as much a product of modern (442 and later) rolling stock formations ?

I guess the single track section is more of a limiting factor, otherwise it would be relatively easy to hire some top and tailed coaching sock (or even the thumper) to run shuttles for the duration.
 

6Gman

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Funny old world - wasn't there a thread on here criticising the provision of extra capacity (in the form of a Voyager) to Weymouth?
 

Smethwickian

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It would be nice if our rail network had a little more resilience, and a little bit of scope for flexibility - but not massive overcapacity.

It's nice to have a spare room for a guest but I'm not going to buy an enormous house far bigger than I myself need, with consequent mortgage/maintenance/insurance/council tax/heating costs, on the basis that once in a very occasional while I might have more than one visitor.
 

MarkyT

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Just saw a report on this on Spotlight on BBC1 South West.

It's not just the single line and the power supply that are limiting factors. In some places single lines are fitted with intermediate block signals, allowing a 'flight' of trains to follow each other in one direction then switching over to allow a similar flight in the other. The mix of 1980s TCB in the Dorchester/ Weymouth area and the older AB with long sections east of the single line couldn't cope with queuing up such convoys, even if the single line had those additional signals (which it doesn't, as the regular service wouldn't justify the expense). Perhaps one day ERTMS will allow this sort of capability to be provided economically.
 

Cherry_Picker

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I had to laugh at Barry Doe's analogy of 'it would be like building a new motorway'. A good example of opening mouth before engaging brain. A more accurate analogy would be to suggest that the bus industry lays on lots more coaches for the event, but then that would severely undermine Doe's argument. I've read Barry's articles from time to time and often find them interesting but that sort of nonsense makes him look a little foolish.

He seems to have forgotten that Weymouth did get a new £90m road built into it because of the Olympics too. ;)
 

HSTEd

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All Tim's done is to tacitly admit that the Bournemouth - Weymouth electrification was, like Redhill - Tonbridge and the E.C.M.L. was carried out on the cheap by B.R.

.... It was do it on the cheap or not at all.

The electrification is still highly beneficial to operations and was optimised for the demands that were planned to be placed upon it, you can't just expect a corporation with limited resources to gold plate everything.

Two miles "on the cheap" or one mile "done properly".... I know which one I would take, and it doesn't involve any gold plate.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wouldn't the restricted power supply have originally been built to cope with eight carriage trains (west of Poole) rather than the twelve that the mainline to London could cope with, so the five carriage limit is as much a product of modern (442 and later) rolling stock formations ?

Nope, as I understand it the line west of Bournemouth was done in 1988, which mean it was done specifically to use 5WES units rather than the Mark 1 units that had been used on Weymouth services before then. (Well 4REPs to Bournemouth and then 33 hauled TCs to Weymouth).
 

Schnellzug

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Oh don't be silly, mr. T, this is just more hype. They know exactly how many will be interested in the Siling; the number that've bought tickets for the Spectator grandstand (or being given corporate hospitality), and they'll all come by car, of course, since they're Upmarket. What they're trying to do is build up hype for the satellite things such as Giant Screens on the Beach and the funfair they've set up next to the harbour, and since they haven't any idea how many that might attract, they're just trying a kind of reverse hype, exaggerating wildly how many people there're going to be (which they couldn't possibly estimate), to make it look as if LOCOG might not have wasted such an extraordinary amount of money.
In short, it's all hype.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

* For once, indidentally, I think Barry speaks a lot of sense.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

He seems to have forgotten that Weymouth did get a new £90m road built into it because of the Olympics too. ;)

they're going to close it and dig it up after the Closing Ceremony? It was hardly as if that was built just for the "Games".
 
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Chris125

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The Weymouth relief road has been planned for decades, the Olympics just provided the impetus to finally get it done.

Chris
 

Cherry_Picker

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they're going to close it and dig it up after the Closing Ceremony? It was hardly as if that was built just for the "Games".

Because of the Olympics ≠ just for the "Games" does it?

The road into Weymouth may have been needed for years, Weymouth certainly trades on tourism and having good links to the rest of the country is needed but the decision to have the Olympics there was the reason why the road got funding.

I get why Stagecoach are telling people to use the roads. They know their trains are going to be full regardless of what they say and they know there is a shiny new £90m road going directly into Weymouth. I just thought I'd highlight that with my earlier comment.
 

Railsigns

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The UK operates a railway network of which the infrastructure is designed to a specification to cover minimum requirements and nothing more, any surge in capacity or demand and it falls over. I believe the correct technical terms for this state are cheap and bodged.

Cheap and bodged would be a great improvement. John Major and co. saw to it that Britain's rail network is expensive and bodged.
 

Monty

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What parts of the network exactly are bodged? The work NR has done in recent times is what I would call to a high standard.
 

38Cto15E

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Not a good couple of days for Stagecoach.

1/ Get the bus from Bournemouth to Weymouth during the Olympics

2/ EMT drivers to strike during the Olympics

3/ £46,000,000 donation from the government, actually not bad for the shareholders after all
 

Schnellzug

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What parts of the network exactly are bodged? The work NR has done in recent times is what I would call to a high standard.

recently, perhaps, but I think it's surely unarguable that the ECML, as the most glaring example, and arguably the Great Eastern, was done as 'cost effectively' (ahum) as possible. We see the results almost every week, don't we, a sthe wires come down somewhere or other.
 

Greenback

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It would be nice if our rail network had a little more resilience, and a little bit of scope for flexibility - but not massive overcapacity.

It's nice to have a spare room for a guest but I'm not going to buy an enormous house far bigger than I myself need, with consequent mortgage/maintenance/insurance/council tax/heating costs, on the basis that once in a very occasional while I might have more than one visitor.

There are alot of good, and interesting comments on this thread, but, for me, this one for me highlights the situation with our railways nicely.

Ther emust be a bit of middle gorund between trying to scrape by with the bare minimum, which is a mindset that has continued since BR in the 1960's, and having platforms for 15 carriage trains!

Or, in the house context, a couple who have no children are unlikely to want to buy a five bedroom house unless they have a lot of money, but they may not want to live in a one bedroom house either, as they will be unable to offer guests a spare bed.

To be honest, it has been proven in both road and rail transport that when facilities have been upgraded and services have been improved, they do become busier as a result, whether you are talking about new roads or replacing removed infrastructure. Sadly, the political will is still not there to properly invest in rail.

That said, I do recognis ethat demand in Weymouth under normal circumstances is unlikely to ever require a ten minute service of ten coach double decker trains!
 
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