Tamworth to Willington

1955LR

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As part of split ticketing Return Great Malvern to Newark, I had a Anytime Day return ticket, Tamworth to Willington, with the restriction Not Valid via Birmingham . Is there a valid route to travel between these two points via Birmingham with a different ticket ?
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Tickets from Tamworth to Willington are available in both route "Any Permitted" and route "Not via Birmingham" variants. The former, priced at £13.90 for an Anytime Day Return, which presumably does allow travel via Birmingham, is £1.00 more than the one you've got (£12.90).

Solution might therefore just be to purchase a Change of Route excess (sometimes easier said than done!)
 

GC class B1

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I don’t understand this query. Tamworth to Willington involves a direct route with only one intermediate station at Burton on Trent. Birmingham is in the opposite direction.
 

Mcr Warrior

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I don’t understand this query. Tamworth to Willington involves a direct route with only one intermediate station at Burton on Trent. Birmingham is in the opposite direction.
Is it because some XC services between Burton-on-Trent and New Street (and/or vice-versa) don't call at Tamworth, necessitating travelling via / doubling back at Birmingham?
 

GC class B1

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Is it because some XC services between Burton-on-Trent and New Street (and/or vice-versa) don't call at Tamworth, necessitating travelling via / doubling back at Birmingham?
All the Birmingham to Nottingham XC services that stop at Tamworth also stop at Burton on Trent and some of these stop at Willington.
 

Starmill

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All the Birmingham to Nottingham XC services that stop at Tamworth also stop at Burton on Trent and some of these stop at Willington.
Some trains call at Tamworth but not Burton-on-Trent, and vice versa, which is what the post you're replying to is saying.
 

Mcr Warrior

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All the Birmingham to Nottingham XC services that stop at Tamworth also stop at Burton on Trent and some of these stop at Willington.
As @Starmill has just clarified, not all the XC services from Burton-on-Trent to New Street (and beyond) call at Tamworth. E.g. the 0941 calling at Burton for Bristol Temple Meads. Must be some reason for having "not via Birmingham" tickets AND higher priced "any permitted" tickets. Suspect this dual fare option might be offered for Willington->Tamworth journeys as I think Willington is in the same fares cluster as Burton->Tamworth.
 

Watershed

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As part of split ticketing Return Great Malvern to Newark, I had a Anytime Day return ticket, Tamworth to Willington, with the restriction Not Valid via Birmingham . Is there a valid route to travel between these two points via Birmingham with a different ticket ?
There are also fares routed Any Permitted, but perhaps surprisingly, these aren't valid via Birmingham. So you are paying extra for nothing if you buy these!

Rerouting the Any Permitted fare to via Derby would probably be more useful, as that's often the quickest route between Tamworth and Willington. However I suspect the price would have to increase to allay concerns of potential revenue abstraction (as currently, the Any Permitted Tamworth-Willington fares are substantially cheaper than the Tamworth-Derby fares)
 

jfollows

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There are also fares routed Any Permitted, but perhaps surprisingly, these aren't valid via Birmingham. So you are paying extra for nothing if you buy these!
I was thinking that too, thank you!
There are a lot of "any permitted" tickets being valid via Birmingham in the area (Lichfield-Tamworth from memory?) but this isn't one of them.
EDIT Lichfield - Tamworth valid using map WM which is via Birmingham.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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There are also fares routed Any Permitted, but perhaps surprisingly, these aren't valid via Birmingham. So you are paying extra for nothing if you buy these!
Did wonder! Thanks for clarifying. Presumably that means the OP will no doubt now need some additional tickets to travel via Birmingham on their Tamworth->Willington leg.
 

1955LR

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It just seemed odd to me that between those two stations there isn't an obvious route via Birmingham . From replies it makes sense should one have a through ticket from further afield involving travelling between those two points. The timing of the train with that particular split was advantages' to me even when there were slightly cheaper splits available at other times
 

Haywain

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Is it because some XC services between Burton-on-Trent and New Street (and/or vice-versa) don't call at Tamworth, necessitating travelling via / doubling back at Birmingham?
Difficult to see that, given that there do not appear to be any trains that call at Willington without also calling at Tamworth.
 

Mcr Warrior

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So, what is the reason for having "not via Birmingham" tickets AND higher priced "any permitted" tickets on this Tamworth to Willington flow?
 

Watershed

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So, what is the reason for having "not via Birmingham" tickets AND higher priced "any permitted" tickets on this Tamworth to Willington flow?
It doesn't really make much sense, regardless of which way you look at it. The cost of Tamworth-Willington "Any Permitted" is much less than Birmingham-Willington and only slightly more than Birmingham-Tamworth.

I suppose it could be a historic relic from the early days of the Routeing Guide, before Tamworth became its own Routeing Point (which occurred at some point between 2003 and 2007, based in the archived Pink Pages here). With the rule that for 'local' journeys you can take a direct train to & from a common Routeing Point, it would have been permitted to travel via Birmingham on an "Any Permitted" ticket.
 

Haywain

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So, what is the reason for having "not via Birmingham" tickets AND higher priced "any permitted" tickets on this Tamworth to Willington flow?
It looks like a fares cluster is the cause. There is a fares cluster which includes the Lichfield stations alongside Tamworth to Willington. So, if you look at fares from Lichfield Trent Valley to Willington in BRFares, using expert mode you will see that Tamworth is in the same cluster. As that cluster has, logically, both routes it seems to me that they have had to set the lower fares from Tamworth for both routes to override the higher fares. It's a bit odd.
 
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Watershed

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It looks like a fares cluster is the cause. There is a fares cluster which includes the Lichfield stations alongside Tamworth to Willington. So, if you look at fares from Lichfield Trent Valley to Willington in BRFares, using expert mode you will see that Tamworth is in the same cluster. As that cluster has, logically, both routes it seems to me that they have had to set the lower fares from Tamworth for both routes to override the higher fares. It's a bit odd.
Ah, this makes more sense. So really it's an example of slightly lazy faresetting - either all the fares should be point to point (thus eliminating the need to unnecessarily override anything). Or the Any Permitted fare should be rerouted to via Birmingham (or an easement added to this effect), and then there would be no need for an override for that fare.
 

Haywain

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Or the Any Permitted fare should be rerouted to via Birmingham (or an easement added to this effect), and then there would be no need for an override for that fare.
I suspect it can only override by being the same route. An interesting comparison can be seen with the fares from Wilnecote, where only the 'Not via Birmingham' has been set separately.
 

2192

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Isn't there a "No going through the same station twice" rule? If yes, doesn't Tamworth to Willington via Birmingham fall foul of it?
 

Watershed

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Isn't there a "No going through the same station twice" rule? If yes, doesn't Tamworth to Willington via Birmingham fall foul of it?
In some situations doubling back is prohibited, in others is allowed. There isn't a blanket rule one way or the other; it depends on the ticket in question.
 

kieron

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It looks like a fares cluster is the cause. There is a fares cluster which includes the Lichfield stations alongside Tamworth to Willington. So, if you look at fares from Lichfield Trent Valley to Willington in BRFares, using expert mode you will see that Tamworth is in the same cluster.
That would make sense, but the same flows exist between Lichfield Trent Valley and Burton-on-Trent. Burton isn't in any clusters, and there are no fares defined between it and the Lichfield cluster, but only station-station fares.

I notice that Willington-Lichfield Trent Valley tickets with both routes exist in the NFM64 fare list from 1996, in which case they may have only been kept because that was easier than removing one. I don't know what would have counted as a "reasonable route", though.
 

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