Tank engines on express workings

[delt1c]

Saw some pictures recently of tanks piloting tender locos out on Glasgow Central on express services and got me thinking ( yes the grey cells still work) were there any express services during BR days scheduled for tank engines. I am not thinking of splitting trains where a tank may have done last few miles, rather services where a tank was allocated for substantial distance and possibly speed

 

[WesternLancer]

Saw some pictures recently of tanks piloting tender locos out on Glasgow Central on express services and got me thinking ( yes the grey cells still work) were there any express services during BR days scheduled for tank engines. I am not thinking of splitting trains where a tank may have done last few miles, rather services where a tank was allocated for substantial distance and possibly speed

don't suppose the LTSR tanks really fit your criteria, but -
https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2018/1...6-4-tank-steam-locomotives-sole-survivor.html

 

[mailbyrail]

I believe the Cambrian Coast Express service from Dovey Junc to Pwllhelli was regularly hauled by a tank engine.
Yes, a portion working but at around 60 miles, hardly the last few miles.

 

[John Webb]

It wasn't easy allocating a tank engine to an express service over any distance due to their limited coal and water capacity compared to a tender loco. The distance of 60 miles mentioned in the previous post was probably approaching the sensible maximum practicable distance.

 

[Iskra]

London-Bradford services between Leeds and Bradford were run by Standard 4MT Tanks, although this was only a portion of the full train.

 

[30907]

Not BR, but the LBSCR and later SR used tanks on the Brighton line, until the panic after the Sevenoaks accident stopped that (and nearly all the locos were rebuilt with tenders).
However, I believe in the mid 50s Brighton sometimes had to resort to a Standard 4 tank for the daily Bournemouth through train, when no Bulleid Pacifics were serviceable. That's pushing 100 miles, but there wouldn't have been more than 15 miles between stops.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Saw some pictures recently of tanks piloting tender locos out on Glasgow Central on express services and got me thinking ( yes the grey cells still work) were there any express services during BR days scheduled for tank engines. I am not thinking of splitting trains where a tank may have done last few miles, rather services where a tank was allocated for substantial distance and possibly speed

How about a portion of the Lakes Express North from Preston with class 4 tank. Can remember them but not sure which portion it was but not Whitehaven or Workington via Barrow.

 

[70014IronDuke]

don't suppose the LTSR tanks really fit your criteria, but -
https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2018/1...6-4-tank-steam-locomotives-sole-survivor.html

The LT&ST service must have been as exhilarating as it was intensive, but I would imagine all trains were Class 2, and speeds normally only up to c 60 mph?

 

[WesternLancer]

The LT&ST service must have been as exhilarating as it was intensive, but I would imagine all trains were Class 2, and speeds normally only up to c 60 mph?

My hunch was that - hence my hesitancy. Some other interesting (much better!) examples have been posted which is great to read about.

 

[hexagon789]

Regularly or would a one-off be allowed? I can immediately provide an example of the latter, the former will take more thought

 

[Merle Haggard]

Long distance but not really expess; Shewsbury-Swansea Victoria,
Already mentioned the Workington and Keswick portions of Euston expresses, but these ran via Penrith and the CK&P in steam days. I think Tebak 2-6-4Ts were used on these from Penrith rather than Preston, but I'm open to correction.
Sometimes the Tebay and Grayrigg bankers were attached to the front of down expresses providing the situation in the O.P.
The Fowler 2-6-4Ts were the usual choice on all of these. For technical reasons probably not understood by Mr. Fowler at the time this design, unlike almost everything else with his name on, could achieve high speeds. On a railtour in the early 60s we had 42350 (a well-maintained Willesden engine often used on passenger work) and progress from Manton to Corby was very brisk (70 +), enlivened by the eerie 'squawk' of the whistle in tunnels. I only found out much later that, after the Sevenoaks derailment, Mr Fowler had promised the B.o.T. that these locos. would never be used on fast passenger trains.

 

[Taunton]

GWR had some. The Churchward 36xx 2-4-2T locos were used on a range of fast services around Banbury-Leamington, and actually had 2-way water trough pickup apparatus fitted. At first, unused to designing this for side tanks instead of tenders, the tank vents had been insufficiently designed, and water pressure from a fast pickup physically ripped open the tank tops.

Dean/Churchward 36xx Class 2-4-2 Tank

 

[Bevan Price]

Liverpool Central to Manchester Central expresses had ex-LMSR 2-6-4 tanks (along with Black 5s) in the mid 1950s until dieselisation.
They (and BR 2-6-4 tanks) also worked some Manchester Victoria to Southport services.
Tank locos worked many Birkenhead Woodside to Paddington services as far as Chester (where the complete train had to reverse.) Types included GW 41xx 2-6-2 tanks (until they were moved away), BR 82xxx 2-6-2T, then BR 80xxx and ex-LMSR 2-6-4 tanks.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Long distance but not really expess; Shewsbury-Swansea Victoria,
Already mentioned the Workington and Keswick portions of Euston expresses, but these ran via Penrith and the CK&P in steam days. I think Tebak 2-6-4Ts were used on these from Penrith rather than Preston, but I'm open to correction.
Sometimes the Tebay and Grayrigg bankers were attached to the front of down expresses providing the situation in the O.P.
The Fowler 2-6-4Ts were the usual choice on all of these. For technical reasons probably not understood by Mr. Fowler at the time this design, unlike almost everything else with his name on, could achieve high speeds. On a railtour in the early 60s we had 42350 (a well-maintained Willesden engine often used on passenger work) and progress from Manton to Corby was very brisk (70 +), enlivened by the eerie 'squawk' of the whistle in tunnels. I only found out much later that, after the Sevenoaks derailment, Mr Fowler had promised the B.o.T. that these locos. would never be used on fast passenger trains.

Late 1950s class 4 tanks were used on the Lakes Express North of Preston. Even as a young teenager was conscious that this was not usual. I was used to the tanks on slow East and West Lancs and Blackpool to Manchester stoppers. But the reputed fastest train from Preston to Blackpool was the afternoon Euxton ROF to Blackpool train that went non stop on the through lines past Preston station.

 

[RT4038]

Cheltenham St.James'-Paddington expresses were frequently hauled by tank engines to Gloucester Central, where the trains reversed

 

[Bovverboy]

London-Bradford services between Leeds and Bradford were run by Standard 4MT Tanks, although this was only a portion of the full train.

I presume you are referring to London Kings Cross to Bradford Exchange trains. In referring to 'Standard' 4MT tanks (in particular, starting 'Standard' with a capital letter), the implication seems to be that the type referred to was the BR-designed 80000-80154. Whether that was your intention or not, that was not the type used, it was, in the tank engine era, LMS-designed Stanier/Fairburn tanks.

Stanier/Fairburn tanks, in this case from Manningham shed, also used to haul 'The Devonian' between Leeds City and Bradford Forster Square, but in that case the entire train continued from Leeds to Bradford. Luckily the route is pretty flat! In an afternoon the tank used to run light engine from Manningham to Leeds City to take up the working, I imagine the routine in the morning would have been the reverse. Of course, there needed to be a change of loco at Leeds City since the train reversed there, thereby denying Bradfordians like myself the delights of a Holbeck or Bristol Barrow Road allocated Jubilee, most days.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Late 1950s class 4 tanks were used on the Lakes Express North of Preston. Even as a young teenager was conscious that this was not usual. I was used to the tanks on slow East and West Lancs and Blackpool to Manchester stoppers. But the reputed fastest train from Preston to Blackpool was the afternoon Euxton ROF to Blackpool train that went non stop on the through lines past Preston station.

Thank you for that. I recall a photo. in Trains Illustrated of this train on the CK&P behind a 2-6-4T and made an assumption. I wonder it if was banked or piloted over Shap by another 2-6-4T???
I've been looking at old public TTs and realise I had some misconceptions. For instance, the highlight of the day at N'pton was what everyone called 'The Windermere'; an up train sometimes with exotic locos. But, looking in the TT, it started at Carlisle, all stations (including Shap!) and the Windermere was a TC. Logically (as we've seen, not always true) this would be attached at Oxenholme, and it's another candidate for 'tank engine on express train'

 

[Iskra]

I presume you are referring to London Kings Cross to Bradford Exchange trains. In referring to 'Standard' 4MT tanks (in particular, starting 'Standard' with a capital letter), the implication seems to be that the type referred to was the BR-designed 80000-80154. Whether that was your intention or not, that was not the type used, it was, in the tank engine era, LMS-designed Stanier/Fairburn tanks.

Stanier/Fairburn tanks, in this case from Manningham shed, also used to haul 'The Devonian' between Leeds City and Bradford Forster Square, but in that case the entire train continued from Leeds to Bradford. Luckily the route is pretty flat! In an afternoon the tank used to run light engine from Manningham to Leeds City to take up the working, I imagine the routine in the morning would have been the reverse. Of course, there needed to be a change of loco at Leeds City since the train reversed there, thereby denying Bradfordians like myself the delights of a Holbeck or Bristol Barrow Road allocated Jubilee, most days.

Apologies, you are correct; I was quoting a source from memory at the time and did so incorrectly. On returning to the source, I've also found such Stanier/Fowler/Fairburn tank engines on the Wakefield-Halifax portions of London trains and on Leeds-Liverpool express workings.

 

[PHILIPE]

Long distance but not really expess; Shewsbury-Swansea Victoria,
Already mentioned the Workington and Keswick portions of Euston expresses, but these ran via Penrith and the CK&P in steam days. I think Tebak 2-6-4Ts were used on these from Penrith rather than Preston, but I'm open to correction.
Sometimes the Tebay and Grayrigg bankers were attached to the front of down expresses providing the situation in the O.P.
The Fowler 2-6-4Ts were the usual choice on all of these. For technical reasons probably not understood by Mr. Fowler at the time this design, unlike almost everything else with his name on, could achieve high speeds. On a railtour in the early 60s we had 42350 (a well-maintained Willesden engine often used on passenger work) and progress from Manton to Corby was very brisk (70 +), enlivened by the eerie 'squawk' of the whistle in tunnels. I only found out much later that, after the Sevenoaks derailment, Mr Fowler had promised the B.o.T. that these locos. would never be used on fast passenger trains.

Towards the end sme BR 80xxx 2-6-4 Tanks appeared on the Heart of Wales route. One day a WR 56xx 0-6-2 did a trip !!!

 

[Poolie]

Excellent video of a tank engine on an 'express type' of train
The legendary Kenny Belle. Boy did I give this some revenue in the last desperate days to ride steam in London. It was unadvertised, so very few enthusiasts were ever on it

 

[WesternLancer]

Excellent video of a tank engine on an 'express type' of train
The legendary Kenny Belle. Boy did I give this some revenue in the last desperate days to ride steam in London. It was unadvertised, so very few enthusiasts were ever on it

Great to see that film!
Why was it an unadvertised service as mentioned in the commentary?

And isn't that a Camping Coach at Kensington? Who knew they were based at London stations? - mind u given London hotel prices could have been a money spinner for BR!!

 

[Taunton]

Great to see that film!
Why was it an unadvertised service as mentioned in the commentary?

It was a strange feature of the service, that it was withdrawn in WW2, then what was effectively an unadvertised "workmen's" service (though they all seem to be wearing suits and ties) restarted as requested by the various large offices around Olympia. It did sometimes appear in timetables, I think the ABC put it in, but not the proper railway one. It was on the departure boards at Clapham Jc. It carried on like this for decades. Sometimes it left from way over on the Brighton side there, as here, other years from the Windsor Lines side.

John Betjeman wrote a lovely description of it, in his usual style, in the early 1950s, it being unadvertised even them.

 

[Signalmans Eye]

Sunday morning Newspaper trains 02.45 and 03.15 M/c Ex -lpool lime st in early 60s were hauled by stanier tanks and returned from lpool double headed with empty parcel van train to Ordsall lane carr sdgs

 

[WesternLancer]

It was a strange feature of the service, that it was withdrawn in WW2, then what was effectively an unadvertised "workmen's" service (though they all seem to be wearing suits and ties) restarted as requested by the various large offices around Olympia. It did sometimes appear in timetables, I think the ABC put it in, but not the proper railway one. It was on the departure boards at Clapham Jc. It carried on like this for decades. Sometimes it left from way over on the Brighton side there, as here, other years from the Windsor Lines side.

John Betjeman wrote a lovely description of it, in his usual style, in the early 1950s, it being unadvertised even them.

Thanks - very odd, but interesting to read! I bet the Betjeman descrip is good.

 

[Taunton]

I bet the Betjeman descrip is good.

In Punch, 25 August 1954, and repeated in Bryan Morgan's "Railway Lovers Companion"

Bryan Morgan The railway-lover's companion.

Anthologies of railway writing and poetry

www.steamindex.com

 

[WesternLancer]

In Punch, 25 August 1954, and repeated in Bryan Morgan's "Railway Lovers Companion"

Bryan Morgan The railway-lover's companion.

Anthologies of railway writing and poetry

www.steamindex.com

Thanks for the reference. Not being on line by looks of it, I'll dig out my Jonathan Glancey book 'Betjeman on Trains' to see if it gets included.

 

[matchmaker]

Long distance but not really expess; Shewsbury-Swansea Victoria,
Already mentioned the Workington and Keswick portions of Euston expresses, but these ran via Penrith and the CK&P in steam days. I think Tebak 2-6-4Ts were used on these from Penrith rather than Preston, but I'm open to correction.
Sometimes the Tebay and Grayrigg bankers were attached to the front of down expresses providing the situation in the O.P.
The Fowler 2-6-4Ts were the usual choice on all of these. For technical reasons probably not understood by Mr. Fowler at the time this design, unlike almost everything else with his name on, could achieve high speeds. On a railtour in the early 60s we had 42350 (a well-maintained Willesden engine often used on passenger work) and progress from Manton to Corby was very brisk (70 +), enlivened by the eerie 'squawk' of the whistle in tunnels. I only found out much later that, after the Sevenoaks derailment, Mr Fowler had promised the B.o.T. that these locos. would never be used on fast passenger trains.

Long travel valves and decent bearing sizes, unlike most Fowler designs.

 

[geoffk]

The Sevenoaks derailment drew attention to the pitfalls of using tank engines on fast passenger trains. The high centre of gravity of the SECR 2-6-4 tank and the tendency for water in the side tanks to surge caused these engines to roll dangerously at speed, although in this case the condition of the track took some of the blame. The large 4-6-4 tanks of the LBSCR had to have their side tanks only partly filled and a well tank added to eliminate similar problems. Other railways which used tanks on express trains in pre-grouping days were the L&YR and the GWR, and both of those experienced derailments which brought the use of tank engines into question. In fact the GWR rebuilt some of its 0-4-4 tanks "back to front" as 4-4-0 tender engines, having started life as 0-4-2 tanks.

 

[daodao]

Pre-grouping, NSR tank engines hauled Manchester (London Road) to London (Euston) expresses between Manchester and Stoke via Macclesfield.

The NCC (later UTA) used its WT class 2-6-4T tank engines on express trains from Belfast (York Road) to Derry (Waterside). They were the last working main line steam locomotives in regular use in the UK.

 

[30907]

!
Why was it an unadvertised service as mentioned in the commentary?

And isn't that a Camping Coach at Kensington?

It ran for GPO office workers (hence the clothes!), returning ECS, but started appearing in the public timetable in the early or mid 70s IIRC.
The Camping Coach is definitely "ex" - the SR went over to ex-Pullmans in the early 60s - so maybe it had been repurposed?