Tapping out then tapping in straight away at the same gateline

[mm333]

In readiness for going station hopping down the Elizabeth Line, if you tap out at a gateline and then go straight back in at the same gateline, is this treated as the start of a new journey? Rather than, say, it being some kind of OSI where I'd have hit the maximum journey time by the time I'd looked round every station on the line.

 

[spinba11]

If the gatesline is setup to be an IOS it will continue the same journey. To break the OSI you need to enter, exit straight away (again) and re enter.

 

[mm333]

Thank you. Excuse my ignorance. I thought gatelines were only set up to be OSIs depending on where you previously tapped out of.

So if I went Paddington-Bank-Heron Quays DLR then Canary Wharf Crossrail-Abbey Wood, that would be an OSI and so one journey.

But would Paddington-Canary Wharf Crossrail then Canary Wharf Crossrail-Abbey Wood be two journeys?

 

[spinba11]

l’m 99% both would be 1 journey, it doesn’t matter where you originally tapped in for it to count as a OSI. Imagine it like this, somewhere in the gate line setting there’s a checkbox labeled OSI, if it’s checked it asks for the other gate line(s) that it’s an OSI with.

 

[MikeWh]

So if I went Paddington-Bank-Heron Quays DLR then Canary Wharf Crossrail-Abbey Wood, that would be an OSI and so one journey.

Possibly. I'm not convinced that Heron Quays to Canary Wharf EL will be an OSI. Canary Wharf DLR to Canary Wharf EL almost certainly will be, but I'm still waiting for the complete list of new ones associated with the Elizabeth Line.

But would Paddington-Canary Wharf Crossrail then Canary Wharf Crossrail-Abbey Wood be two journeys?

Yes it would.

l’m 99% both would be 1 journey, it doesn’t matter where you originally tapped in for it to count as a OSI. Imagine it like this, somewhere in the gate line setting there’s a checkbox labeled OSI, if it’s checked it asks for the other gate line(s) that it’s an OSI with.

When you exit at a station which is part of an OSI and then enter at a station which is listed as the other end of a valid OSI then the journey will be joined together. In a few limited places this does work within one station, but in general, exit and re-entry at the same gateline will start a new journey.

To break the OSI you need to enter, exit straight away (again) and re enter.

That can work in limited circumstances, but only where there are fares set appropriately.

As an example, say you want to break the OSI at Tottenham Hale on a Broxbourne to Oxford Circus journey. [Hint: you may save money doing this]
On exit from Tottenham Hale NR you are charged for a Broxbourne to Tottenham Hale NR journey. You then enter Tottenham Hale LU and exit straight away. Because of the OSI your journey has now become Broxbourne to Totenham Hale LU. Thankfully this can be done via Seven Sisters so the fare exists, and is either the same or 10p different. When you re-enter Tottenham Hale LU you start a new journey as desired.

 

[JonathanH]

Thankfully this can be done via Seven Sisters so the fare exists

Surely there are no two stations in the Oyster / Contactless area for which no fare exists? Some aren't published but all exist.

My latest experiment was Liverpool Street (National Rail) to King's Cross St Pancras (Underground), charged £3.20 for a Zone 1-2 peak TfL scale journey, recognising that this journey can only be made by first going to Zone 2.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes, all fares exist. They don't always help break OSIs though, either because they are wrong, or because to get between the new start and end costs much more. What I'm trying to say is if you want to use the in out in method to break an OSI then you need to check the intermediate fare. If it doesn't 'exist' then you can't assume it will be favourable.

 

[Vespa]

What is OSI ?

 

[Dstock7080]

What is OSI ?

What is OSI ?

Out of Station Interchange

 

[MikeWh]

but I'm still waiting for the complete list of new ones associated with the Elizabeth Line.

List now received. OSIs from Canary Wharf EL station to all of Poplar, West India Quay and Canary Wharf DLR, plus Canary Wharf LU.

Heron Quays is not included.

 

[mm333]

List now received. OSIs from Canary Wharf EL station to all of Poplar, West India Quay and Canary Wharf DLR, plus Canary Wharf LU.

Heron Quays is not included.

Thanks for that update Mike and your wisdom upthread.

 

[rebmcr]

List now received. OSIs from Canary Wharf EL station to all of Poplar, West India Quay and Canary Wharf DLR, plus Canary Wharf LU.

Heron Quays is not included.

Can you 'continue' an OSI by going, for example: Tap in Mudchute; Tap out Heron Quays; Tap in Canary Wharf LU; Tap out Canary Wharf LU; Tap in Canary Wharf EL; Tap out Woolwich EL ?

 

[MikeWh]

Can you 'continue' an OSI by going, for example: Tap in Mudchute; Tap out Heron Quays; Tap in Canary Wharf LU; Tap out Canary Wharf LU; Tap in Canary Wharf EL; Tap out Woolwich EL ?

I think that would work, but much easier to use Canary Wharf DLR to EL. Avoids going down into the LU station and back up.

 

[rebmcr]

I think that would work, but much easier to use Canary Wharf DLR to EL. Avoids going down into the LU station and back up.

Indeed, I just find the theory interesting!

 

[Taunton]

List now received. OSIs from Canary Wharf EL station to all of Poplar, West India Quay and Canary Wharf DLR, plus Canary Wharf LU.

Heron Quays is not included.

That's sort of what we expected here. West India Quay is the nearest, Poplar a bit further but the walking route obvious as they are on opposite sides of a building site. From Canary Wharf DLR, if you don't know the vicinity, it is a notable challenge to get to Canary Wharf Crossrail in an efficient manner. Likewise getting there from the Jubilee Line station.

I wonder what would happen if you tapped out at Heron Quays, tapped in but then immediately out again at the Jubilee station, then in again at the Crossrail station.

 

[rebmcr]

I wonder what would happen if you tapped out at Heron Quays, tapped in but then immediately out again at the Jubilee station, then in again at the Crossrail station.

That's exactly what I already posited. :P

 

[DelW]

Thanks for that update Mike and your wisdom upthread.

You may have your own reasons for using Oyster or contactless, but personally, for station hopping, track bashing, etc. I would *always* use a paper travelcard. You can make any combination of journeys (within its validity obviously) without worrying about how "the system" will interpret your travels. This does come from past experience .

 

[rg177]

Thought I'd use an existing thread rather than make a new one for this...

I've just done the opposite so to speak. I've come off the Elizabeth Line at Paddington, needing to transfer to TfL Rail/GWR to Hayes.

I've misread the platform number at Paddington, touched in, realised I can't actually access my train, touched out then touched in at the correct gateline.

TfL website states I'm going to get maximum fared then refunded for this as it was within two minutes that I touched out but I then touched in again within another two.

Do I have to do any chasing up or will the back office just work it all out overnight and I shouldn't have much trouble?

Full journey by Rail/Tube is Farringdon to Hayes and Harlington.

 

[MikeWh]

Thought I'd use an existing thread rather than make a new one for this...

I've just done the opposite so to speak. I've come off the Elizabeth Line at Paddington, needing to transfer to TfL Rail/GWR to Hayes.

I've misread the platform number at Paddington, touched in, realised I can't actually access my train, touched out then touched in at the correct gateline.

TfL website states I'm going to get maximum fared then refunded for this as it was within two minutes that I touched out but I then touched in again within another two.

Do I have to do any chasing up or will the back office just work it all out overnight and I shouldn't have much trouble?

Full journey by Rail/Tube is Farringdon to Hayes and Harlington.

If you were using contactless then I would expect it to be sorted before you are charged.
If you were using an undiscounted adult Oyster then it should be resolved overnight and any credit refunded next time you touch in/out.
If you Oyster has a discount of any sort then you may need to contact the helpdesk tomorrow.

 

[rg177]

If you were using contactless then I would expect it to be sorted before you are charged.
If you were using an undiscounted adult Oyster then it should be resolved overnight and any credit refunded next time you touch in/out.
If you Oyster has a discount of any sort then you may need to contact the helpdesk tomorrow.

Cheers Mike.

It's just contactless. I do need to get around to using Oyster again and loading my railcard on, mind.

I'll see what my banking app says tomorrow but fingers crossed it all gets stitched together and they see it was one journey with an unintended visit to Platform 11 at Paddington

 

[MikeWh]

It's just contactless.

Good. They really don't like charging incomplete journeys with contactless if they don't have to, so I expect it'll be fine.

 

[pelli]

I've come off the Elizabeth Line at Paddington, needing to transfer to TfL Rail/GWR to Hayes.

I've misread the platform number at Paddington, touched in, realised I can't actually access my train, touched out then touched in at the correct gateline.
[...]
Full journey by Rail/Tube is Farringdon to Hayes and Harlington.

*If* you travelled from Farringdon to Paddington on the same contactless card, then you would have tapped
1. In at Farringdon
2. Out at the Elizabeth Line or London Underground gateline
3. In at a National Rail gateline
4. Out at the same NR gateline
5. In at another NR gateline
6. Out at Hayes & Harlington
and I would expect that steps 2 and 3 become linked together as an Out-of-Station Interchange as it is between EL/LU and NR gatelines, but the same might not have happened between steps 4 and 5 (as MikeWh's website does not list Paddington NR to NR as an OSI). The result would then be that you are charged a single journey 1-4 (Farringdon to Paddington NR) and a separate journey 5-6 (Paddington NR to Hayes & Harlington), and, since there are no incomplete journeys, I believe no adjustment will be made. (I have done exactly this kind of manoeuver, but with 3,4,5 all at the same gateline, at other stations to deliberately break an OSI.) If this turns out to be the case when you check your journey history later, then you would have to contact the helpdesk to ask for a refund of the fare difference (but check first that you wouldn't end up paying the same anyway or even more, due to caps, peak/off-peak, etc).

If you were using an undiscounted adult Oyster then it should be resolved overnight and any credit refunded next time you touch in/out.
If you Oyster has a discount of any sort then you may need to contact the helpdesk tomorrow.

Not relevant for contactless, but my naive assumption was that, provided you initially touched in and out within 2 minutes of each other, this refund of the maximum fare onto the Oyster card would occur immediately when you touch in at the next gateline within 45 minutes (or equivalently, this touch simply reopens the journey without subtracting a new maximum fare) - is this not the case? (A delayed refund might have consequences for someone with only enough Oyster balance for one journey, which would go negative after the in-and-out maximum fare is deducted and might prevent the next entry.) I note that TfL's website does not state when the refund happens ("If you re-enter the same or a different station within 45 minutes, you'll be refunded") but yours seems to imply it does occurs immediately upon the next touch ("However, if you re-enter (after topping up for instance) within 45 minutes the original maximum fare is refunded and a new journey is started")?

 

[MikeWh]

The sequence of events doesn't work in the same way if the same station exit is in the middle of the journey. I think I've remembered what happened the last time I carried out such a manouevre, but if I'm wrong I'm sure that the helpdesk will correct it. @rg177 I'd be interested to know how you get on.

 

[rg177]

So I've been charged above what I'd have expected (£5.90) for the journey so I seem to have caused the journey to break in half but no maximum fare has been charged.

I'd chase up a maximum fare but for £2.60 I don't think I'll be going after them. Certainly it'll just teach me to be more careful in future..!

Thanks again @MikeWh for your help.

 

[JonathanH]

Note that if you access platform 10 or 11 and need platform 12 or 14 at Paddington, you can still access those platforms by heading to the country end and using the footbridge to transfer without needing to pass through barriers.

 

[rg177]

Note that if you access platform 10 or 11 and need platform 12 or 14 at Paddington, you can still access those platforms by heading to the country end and using the footbridge to transfer without needing to pass through barriers.

A good one to remember for future trips. Unfortunately it was approaching 20:38 and the train was leaving at 20:40 so I wouldn't have fancied my chances legging it down the length of the platform!

 

[Mojo]

The sequence of events doesn't work in the same way if the same station exit is in the middle of the journey. I think I've remembered what happened the last time I carried out such a manouevre, but if I'm wrong I'm sure that the helpdesk will correct it. @rg177 I'd be interested to know how you get on.

I was with a forum member some years ago (pre CPC days it may even have been) and when he went in, out, and back in again, on the LU gateline at Victoria it had the effect of breaking an OSI, but other than that, did not result in any extra charges. We commented at the time that it was certainly one to remember as a “free” way of breaking an OSI, as opposed to touching on a bus if you weren’t going to get capped.

 

[SynthD]

What difference does a discounted oyster have?

 

[akm]

What difference does a discounted oyster have?

Currently, only undiscounted PAYG Oysters are recalculated overnight by the newer back-office system and potentially refunded. 'Soon', all Oysters will have this functionality. Until then, any kind of discount on your Oyster means you need to engage with the helpdesk to receive such refunds.

 

[miklcct]

I was with a forum member some years ago (pre CPC days it may even have been) and when he went in, out, and back in again, on the LU gateline at Victoria it had the effect of breaking an OSI, but other than that, did not result in any extra charges. We commented at the time that it was certainly one to remember as a “free” way of breaking an OSI, as opposed to touching on a bus if you weren’t going to get capped.

I used the same way at Vauxhall to break an OSI as well, by touching out the LU, in the LU, out the LU, then finally in the NR. By doing so in the afternoon peak the journey is cheaper than a through one.

The whole zone 2 LU - Vauxhall - zone 2 NR journey is charged as a 1-2 peak mixed mode, but breaking it will become 1-2 LU only off-peak and 2 NR only peak, which is cheaper then a through journey on a Railcard.