Telegraph article on proposals to ban split tickets

Status
Not open for further replies.

philjo

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2009
Messages
2,675
There is an article in Todays Daily Telegraph (Saturday - main news section) reporting that train companies are urging DfT to approve proposals to ban the use of split tickets. Discussions are onging with DfT & transport Secretary on this issue.
It reports various options are being considered:
  • A rule of 1 ticket per journey - use of multiple tickets would be banned.
  • Or the passenger would have to get off at the station where they change tickets & cannot reboard the same train.
  • Banning the availabilty of fares data to external websites not run by the TOCs or NRE to make it harder to identify fares that are cheaper by splitting. (It doesn't mention the NFM CD int he article but I suspect that my be under threat as well if that option is implemented)

I can't find the article online at the moment.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,105
There is an article in Todays Daily Telegraph (Saturday - main news section) reporting that train companies are urging DfT to approve proposals to ban the use of split tickets. Discussions are onging with DfT & transport Secretary on this issue.
It reports various options are being considered:
  • A rule of 1 ticket per journey - use of multiple tickets would be banned.
  • Or the passenger would have to get off at the station where they change tickets & cannot reboard the same train.
  • Banning the availabilty of fares data to external websites not run by the TOCs or NRE to make it harder to identify fares that are cheaper by splitting. (It doesn't mention the NFM CD int he article but I suspect that my be under threat as well if that option is implemented)

I can't find the article online at the moment.

Is this an April fool about 2 months late? How would they plan on enforcing this?!
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
We are in an age and with a government that has said it wishes increase the amount of data release into the public domain with open access licences.

Rail fares data has been in the public domain (and purchasable) since a least sometime in the 1980s.

Anyone else see a regressive contradiction here?

Oh but hang on a moment this is the torygrpah - in which I won't worry about it too much.
 

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,348
Location
Southampton
Banning split tickets would be unworkable with the current system. Maybe with it could work with an e-ticket system, though.

Then again, someone could always have multiple e-tickets!
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
Unenforceable and ludicrous but what would one expect from the Torygraph?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wonder which more unsavoury government proposal this is covering?
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
5,875
Banning split tickets would be unworkable with the current system. Maybe with it could work with an e-ticket system, though.

Then again, someone could always have multiple e-tickets!

I suppose if you were required to touch in and out, then you would have to leave the train, and presumably in many cases it would be hard to re-board the same train, so having the desired effect.
 

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,050
The TOCs are not going to prevent split-ticketing any time soon. Nor will they restrict access to fares data. The article is pure speculation.
 

Paul Kelly

Verified Rep - BR Fares
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,765
Location
Reading
It has occured to me more than once that it's possible some TOCs are deliberately spreading FUD about split ticketing, in an attempt to discourage the general public at large from availing of the better value that is often obtainable through it. XC and EMT come to mind. And journalists are simply picking up on this and unwittingly spreading it further.
 

Wath Yard

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2011
Messages
864
I expect the article is completely true. I would be amazed if ATOC, lead by the greediest of the TOCs - the ones that introduced restrictions on the ALR, weren't petitioning the DfT to ban split ticketing. Anybody who thinks that ATOC or the individual TOCs are on the passengers' side is naive beyond belief.

However, if ATOC are trying to ban them it doesn't mean the DfT will permit it.
 

rdwarr

Member
Joined
2 Feb 2012
Messages
398
Location
Stevenage
I bet far more people know about the benefits of split ticketing now than they did before that article was published.
 

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,105
The TOCs are not going to prevent split-ticketing any time soon. Nor will they restrict access to fares data. The article is pure speculation.

I hope this is the case. Certainly from a staff point of view, I don't see how I have a cat in hell's chance of being able to enforce a ban on split-ticketing! I suspect it's a lazy journalist spouting crap to fill his paper.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
Unenforceable and ludicrous but what would one expect from the Torygraph?....

It's not unenforceable if we are forced to have smart cards that allows us to pay when we use them, you'd have to get off the train to swipe or tag the card to tell the system to end the ticket and again start a new one. Advances might be another story though.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
If we had PAYG type smartcards then I would hope they would use a somewhat different system like one based on PPM for example.
 

route:oxford

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2008
Messages
4,949

Did you know, that "Fud", in Scotland, is a crude slang term for female genitalia?

I can't see split ticketing being forbidden. It would be far too difficult to implement - the definition of "single journey" would cause headache enough...

I mean, logically speaking a split ticket from Birmingham to Stirling changing stations in Glasgow could be interpreted as 2 single journeys, but going via Edinburgh and splitting a ticket could be an offence as there is no need to change statons.

Of course, England may go down that route, but not in Scotland... Which would make things interesting.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
Have we not established that PPM is completely unworkable?

Everyone else may have, but I certainly haven't!

I am however prepared to concede that this may be one of my more ideological ideas and that I would probably lose any debate on the subject.

If you wanted to encourage travel on under used flows or restrict/ divert growth on others then yeas PPM is clearly not going to work.
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
Wouldn't any sort of smartcard based system reduce the system to being a given number of singles and consequently eradicate break of journey as Oyster has done in London?
 
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
696
Unenforceable and ludicrous but what would one expect from the Torygraph?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wonder which more unsavoury government proposal this is covering?

Nothing to do with the paper, they're just reporting on government proposals - stupid government proposals..
 

Wath Yard

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2011
Messages
864
It isn't a Government proposal, if The Telegraph story is true. It is coming from the rail industry.
 

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,481
The TOCs are not going to prevent split-ticketing any time soon. Nor will they restrict access to fares data. The article is pure speculation.

It isn't a Government proposal, if The Telegraph story is true. It is coming from the rail industry.

It would not surprise me one bit if this was true. I heard from a reliable informed source about 18 months or so ago that a sizeable number of TOCs were pressing ATOC to do something about split ticketing, and that source mentioned to me about the idea that each ticket would count as a separate journey and you would need to leave a train in order to transfer from one ticket to another.

In theory I suppose this means that unless you were changing trains somewhere you would have to have a through ticket, and if you did use separate tickets, you wouldn't be covered for missed connections and delays etc.
 

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,050
It has also been published, much more recently, by a reliable source that the DfT doesn't want to change split-ticketing rules because it is too much of a hot potato.

Remember all that speculation about Condition 19 of the NRCoC? Nothing changed! If the TOCs AND the DfT were that bothered about split-ticketing they would have changed it.
 

jkdd77

Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
557
I wonder what would happen if:
a) a passenger wished to travel first class on a through train from A to C;
b) there is no first class through fare, being a route where most (but not quite all) trains convey standard class accommodation only;
c) there are A to B and B to C first class fares available;
d) the train does stop at B;

It would seem unfair to force such a passenger to either stick to standard class, or get off and wait for the next train (which may not necessarily convey first class accommodation anyway).

I may put in a FoI Act request to the DfT (using the 'whatdotheyknow' website) to see if there have been any discussions on this matter.

I would not, however, wholly object to the rule permitting usage of season tickets and non-season tickets to revert to the 'old' wording.
http://www.crowsnest.co.uk/north/br_ncc.htm

Old Condition 17 from British Rail Conditions of Carriage
17. Combining two or more tickets
You may use two or more tickets to travel on one train journey provided that:-
(a) they cover the entire journey; and
(b) one of the following applies:
(i) they are both zonal tickets;
(ii) the train you are on calls at the station(s) where you change from one ticket to another; or
(iii) one of the tickets is a season ticket and one of them is not and any train operated by the same Train Company calls at the station(s) where you change from one ticket to another.

By contrast, the current wording of the NRCoC means that it is permissible to buy a 7DS to the next halt, and add on a succession of SDRs from one halt to another, and use this combination on non-stopping trains. I suspect that the DfT would not object to this being once again banned, since I suspect that it was never intended to be used in this manner.
 
Last edited:

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
I can see the word U-Turn stamped all over this in approximately 3-4 weeks.

Seriously, if this does happen, whoever tries to enforce it will be politely told to sod off.
 

wintonian

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2010
Messages
4,889
Location
Hampshire
I can see the word U-Turn stamped all over this in approximately 3-4 weeks.

Seriously, if this does happen, whoever tries to enforce it will be politely told to sod off.

and given that I suspect quite a few guards will not want to enforce this piece of scaremongering tripe from a subset of news papers that aren't exactly supporters of the railway in the first place.
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
and given that I suspect quite a few guards will not want to enforce this piece of scaremongering tripe from a subset of news papers that aren't exactly supporters of the railway in the first place.

Exactly.

Even trying to do such as system would no doubt ultimately cost a lot more to implement than the additional revenue it would create.
 

BrownE

Member
Joined
9 Apr 2012
Messages
184
FYI, the article:

 

marks87

Established Member
Joined
23 Jun 2010
Messages
1,566
Location
Dundee
"...negative implications of split-ticketing for passengers..."

If you'll pardon the expression...lol, wut?

Perhaps if fares were actually...er...fair, people wouldn't split tickets. What would be wrong with operating like taxis - an initial charge, then a certain amount per mile. Either that, or be more realistic when it comes to day returns; for instance, in my part of the world, ScotRail seem to think you can enjoy a day out in Glasgow from Perth, but not from Dundee or Aberdeen. Which is ludicrous.
 

Ivo

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2010
Messages
7,307
Location
Bath (or Southend)
Negative implications for passengers? No chance. Taxpayers? Are they not the passengers?

"If this becomes widespread" - which it will with publicity like this. All the media do it, and substantial numbers of passengers do it.

ATOC just want more money.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top