Temporary Closure for Rose Hill Marple

[Brissle Girl]

I think the point is that he’s not going to invest substantial amounts of money to ensure his fleet meets the accessibility standards that DfT are demanding are used for rail replacement services going forward, for what he regards as marginal business. So whereas it might have been an ok proposition in the past, it won’t be once that is imposed. Which of course he’s perfectly entitled to do.

 

[SargeNpton]

As an aside, I find it interesting that buses must be PSVAR compliant for railway replacement work but not, presumably, for normal work. Why the imbalance? If compliant coaches are necessary in one place, why not elsewhere? Or have I misinterpreted what the quote was really saying?

Coaches for Rail Replacement work are now regarding as public transport, as the trains they replace are public transport, and so must have the same PSVAR compliance as the trains they replaced.

Coaches on private hire to social clubs, sports clubs, etc, are not public transport so do not have to meet the same levels of accessibility.

 

[edwin_m]

As an aside, I find it interesting that buses must be PSVAR compliant for railway replacement work but not, presumably, for normal work. Why the imbalance? If compliant coaches are necessary in one place, why not elsewhere? Or have I misinterpreted what the quote was really saying?

Coaches for Rail Replacement work are now regarding as public transport, as the trains they replace are public transport, and so must have the same PSVAR compliance as the trains they replaced.

Coaches on private hire to social clubs, sports clubs, etc, are not public transport so do not have to meet the same levels of accessibility.

As I understand it, vehicles used on scheduled bus or coach services must be PSVAR compliant. In practice there's a distinction between buses and coaches.

Most buses are used on scheduled services so are compliant. Given the distance involved these ought to be OK for rail replacement on the Marple line if any can be spared from other duties. Buses used only on school journeys, that would probably be available at other times of day, generally don't have to be compliant. However most coaches are not used on scheduled service as mentioned, so there are very few compliant ones, and those that exist tend to be employed most of the time by the likes of National Express. It costs quite a bit more to buy/retrofit and operate a compliant coach, as it needs a wheelchair lift. So operators are unlikely to invest in them for the occasional rail replacement duty.

So now that is has been decided that rail replacement counts as a scheduled service, the difficulty is finding vehicles that are both compliant and available.

 

[Greybeard33]

So the DfT have used emergency powers legislation to neuter the closure procedure and give itself the power to close stations at will.

Never saw that coming.

I think the closure procedure is a red herring. I am sure that Northern could find the resources to run a weekly "parliamentary" to Rose Hill via Hyde if deemed necessary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the closure procedure is a red herring. I am sure that Northern could find the resources to run a weekly "parliamentary" to Rose Hill via Hyde if deemed necessary.

Sort of. If the line is open with a weekly Parly (like say the Dentonian), all you have to do to introduce a proper service is to add one to the timetable, do any crew training and start running it. If it's actually closed, then reopening would require all stations to be treated as new stations, and so you'd need lifts and the likes as they would have to be fully accessible and meet all new-station standards.

 

[Llandudno]

Sort of. If the line is open with a weekly Parly (like say the Dentonian), all you have to do to introduce a proper service is to add one to the timetable, do any crew training and start running it. If it's actually closed, then reopening would require all stations to be treated as new stations, and so you'd need lifts and the likes as they would have to be fully accessible and meet all new-station standards.

As the Rose Hill line is totally within Greater Manchester, don’t TfGM specify service and fare levels and subsidise the operating costs?

 

[Trackman]

I’ve found a public link to the letter:

https://twitter.com/GwynneMP/status/1286415603352440833

Reading it again, it sounds like other things are afoot for September.

 

[Starmill]

As the Rose Hill line is totally within Greater Manchester, don’t TfGM specify service and fare levels and subsidise the operating costs?

No?

 

[ainsworth74]

I think we're in danger of getting a bit off the point diving into the whys and wherefores of Rail Replacement Bus policy and what might happen in the future regarding provision of such services.

 

[Starmill]

I’ve found a public link to the letter:

https://twitter.com/GwynneMP/status/1286415603352440833

Reading it again, it sounds like other things are afoot for September.

Thank you. Is anyone able to put it through OCR software? I'd try but I'm using my phone.

 

[jfollows]

Thank you. Is anyone able to put it through OCR software? I'd try but I'm using my phone.

Gladly

@northem

Chris Jackson
Regional Director
Northern Trains Limited
Floor C, County Hall,
Pitt Street
Preston PR1 8XB

[email protected]

Andrew Gwynne MP
House of Commons
London
SW1A 1AA

Our ref: CJ/AG

22 July 2020

Dear Andrew,

Re: Amendments to Manchester Piccadilly-Rose Hill via Hyde services from September 2020

I am writing to inform you of a temporary change we will be making to our service pattern in South East Manchester from September 2020.

Following the first phase of our Key Worker Timetable which launched in late March we have been uplifting services on a periodic basis under the principles of reliability, capacity provision and resilience agreed with our clients. It will not be possible for us to restore service levels to pre COVID levels for some time due to the number of colleagues who are classified as vulnerable; the amount of training still to be completed on both our new trains/Class 769 fleet and the natural attrition of operational staff (with their replacements still to be trained).
Like other train operators, we paused all training where social distancing could not be maintained from the start of the pandemic. This has affected our training pipeline for drivers in particular; and we are currently working with our trade union colleagues at a local and national level to risk assess how we can safely switch this training back on.

Over the coming weeks we will make several changes to the service provision, balanced against our resource availability. From early September until mid-December 2020 the Rose Hill Marple-Manchester Piccadilly via Hyde Central service will temporarily not be operating. Customers who usually use Fairfield station will be advised to use services from nearby stations on the Hadfield/Glossop-Manchester line, public bus services or Manchester Metrolink (Ashton Line).

We are currently working on a customer and accessibility mitigation plan with partners including Transport for Greater Manchester to ensure that our customers receive advance notice of the changes.

Should you have any questions about these changes or want to discuss the rationale for this change in more detail, I would be more than happy to meet.

Yours sincerely

W

Chris Jackson
Regional Director



www.northernrailway.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

Gladly

Thank you

 

[Greybeard33]

Realistically, how many passengers might be expected to use the affected stations between September and December, even if Northern ran the full timetable? Many businesses with offices in central Manchester are planning to continue with WFH into 2021. Footfall at city centre shops and hospitality venues is still very low, with most people in the suburbs preferring to stay local or use out of town retail centres. Traffic congestion on radial routes is still much less than pre-COVID, making driving or cycling a more attractive option for those who do want to travel into central Manchester but have concerns about using public transport.

Pre-COVID, the vast majority of the users of the Rose Hill Marple service were travelling to and from central Manchester. It is ill-suited to the travel patterns of the "new normal".

 

[geoffk]

Pre-COVID, the vast majority of the users of the Rose Hill Marple service were travelling to and from central Manchester. It is ill-suited to the travel patterns of the "new normal".

Surely that applies to many commuter lines throughout the country.

 

[py_megapixel]

Sort of. If the line is open with a weekly Parly (like say the Dentonian), all you have to do to introduce a proper service is to add one to the timetable, do any crew training and start running it.

You could even extend the Denton service through Guide Bridge to Rose Hill rather than sending it to Stalybridge (not a serious suggestion by the way but it won't let me put in an emoticon on my phone)

 

[Starmill]

Surely that applies to many commuter lines throughout the country.

It does. The choice most will face is the same one, between carrying very low numbers of passengers and none at all.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does. The choice most will face is the same one, between carrying very low numbers of passengers and none at all.

This might do Northern some favours, as it has solved the overcrowding problem in a stroke and may even mean the 2-car DMU is adequate for the foreseeable. Might even allow some 150 scrapping.

 

[Trackman]

Lib Dem councillors have said there is to be a daily parliamentary train to Rose Hill Marple.
Before you get excited about a day out, it’s one-way. It’ll run mid morning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lib Dem councillors have said there is to be a daily parliamentary train to Rose Hill Marple.
Before you get excited about a day out, it’s one-way. It’ll run mid morning.

Absolutely astonishing that this is being allowed to happen. I fear for all the branch lines, I would be amazed if we didn't lose at least one.

 

[Ianno87]

Lib Dem councillors have said there is to be a daily parliamentary train to Rose Hill Marple.
Before you get excited about a day out, it’s one-way. It’ll run mid morning.

I wonder if it corresponds to the sole arrival at 1039 shown in RTT (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/RSH/2020-10-08/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt)

Although it would be odd sitting there until an ECS move at 2144.....

 

[Ianno87]

Absolutely astonishing that this is being allowed to happen. I fear for all the branch lines, I would be amazed if we didn't lose at least one.

Alarm bells will be ringing if it's not reinstated in December...

*But*.... would concentration of all services on the busier station at Marple not necessarily be the worst thing in the world anyway....? (Discuss) It's probably a bit of a fluke of history that Rose Hill Marple survived at all!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alarm bells will be ringing if it's not reinstated in December...

*But*.... would concentration of all services on the busier station at Marple not necessarily be the worst thing in the world anyway....? (Discuss) It's probably a bit of a fluke of history that Rose Hill Marple survived at all!

It poses a considerable accessibility issue as it's at the the bottom of (well, 2/3 of the way down) a fairly steep hill, probably too steep for quite a lot of manual wheelchair users and probably for those with breathing difficulties or who walk with a stick too. Though somewhere like Germany you'd probably have a bus (with integrated ticketing) running a circuit of Marple town and arriving at the station perfectly timed for the train, which if only we could do things properly might be better.

I'm actually more concerned about the other stations that will lose their service at the drop of a proverbial hat than Rose Hill itself which I agree is a bit of an oddity.

 

[Ianno87]

It poses a considerable accessibility issue as it's at the the bottom of (well, 2/3 of the way down) a fairly steep hill, probably too steep for quite a lot of manual wheelchair users. Though somewhere like Germany you'd probably have a bus running a circuit of Marple town and arriving at the station perfectly timed for the train, which if only we could do things properly might be better.

I'm actually more concerned about the other stations that will lose their service at the drop of a proverbial hat than Rose Hill itself which I agree is a bit of an oddity.

Don't disagree, Rose Hill is very handy for the people who live locally to it, and is a bit of a schlep to Marple (or bus to Stockport).

But, perhaps an Piccadilly - Hyde - Marple service could be reintroduced, so Woodley et al at least kept a service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But, perhaps an Piccadilly - Hyde - Marple service could be reintroduced, so Woodley et al at least kept a service?

Yes. My suggestion was to run one of the New Mills terminators that way, and to run longer trains on the remaining ones to ensure there isn't a capacity problem on the remaining service. I can't imagine the route via Brinnington would be full and standing if it was hourly 4-car at the moment!

There were moans about that being a reduction on the busier route, but that's a bit "I'm all right Jack" to me.

 

[edwin_m]

Alarm bells will be ringing if it's not reinstated in December...

*But*.... would concentration of all services on the busier station at Marple not necessarily be the worst thing in the world anyway....? (Discuss) It's probably a bit of a fluke of history that Rose Hill Marple survived at all!

A former colleague who lived in the area did make the point that the catchment is very different for the two stations. It probably also helps with timetabling to have a station where trains can be turned back without blocking through trains (a bay could be added at Marple to address that, but would cost money and reduce the car park). That colleague has since retired and last I heard was active in the local transport group, so will probably be rattling various cages about this as we speak.

 

[yorksrob]

A stink needs to be kicked up about this situation by the sounds of it.

 

[Dspatula]

The alternative would be going back to how it was last December though with last minute cancellations across all lines. Surely losing one route and having a plan in advance is better than the absolute mess that was the latter half 2019? (Although maybe I'm assuming too much that they'll be any sort of plan)

 

[yorksrob]

The alternative would be going back to how it was last December though with last minute cancellations across all lines. Surely losing one route and having a plan in advance is better than the absolute mess that was the latter half 2019? (Although maybe I'm assuming too much that they'll be any sort of plan)

Given that last December was before the Coronavirus, it suggests that the "absolute mess" would be around with or without the virus, in which case, what hope is there of anything improving, ever.

 

[Trackman]

Given that last December was before the Coronavirus, it suggests that the "absolute mess" would be around with or without the virus, in which case, what hope is there of anything improving, ever.

That's saved me a post.
The December shambles has been around for the last few years.
I think I got caught up in it in 2017 and got stuck at Oxford road.
and they want to bring back the Rose Hill Marple service back in December? I wouldnt hold your breath.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The alternative would be going back to how it was last December though with last minute cancellations across all lines. Surely losing one route and having a plan in advance is better than the absolute mess that was the latter half 2019? (Although maybe I'm assuming too much that they'll be any sort of plan)

It would be better, as I said, to reduce (but lengthen) service on a number of lines than entirely remove it from one. Hourly Southport, for example, rather than 2tph, but run all of it as pairs of 156s to maximise capacity. One of the New Mills services removed to cover this. Basically run a Sunday service but with the branch lines still served.

However as a bare minimum they must be required to provide RRBs, if nothing else a Rose Hill<->Marple shuttle taxi.