Terrified passenger pulled along platform after train doors close on his ankle

[ralphchadkirk]

I didn't hear anything when I used the alarm, but I would say that most people would not bother to read the warning notice in a genuine emergency. They'd simply need to find the alarm and be able to pull it/push it (as appropriate).

I think most people will pull/push/press every alarm in sight should such an incident happen.

 

[PTF62]

The RAIB report also acknowledges that had the train stopped immediatly it probably would have stopped on top of the person.

In a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation, which this was, I think that I would chose the former.

I think most people will pull/push/press every alarm in sight should such an incident happen.

They didn't in the Huntingdon incident. They went to find a member of train staff. People react in very unexpected ways, and official notices saying "don't do this as we will fine you £x" don't help.

 

[googolplex]

On the subject of the perspex covers, the guard of the EC service I was using on Saturday needed to access the first aid box in the carriage I was in, and it took him quite a few goes at the perspex with his T key to get it open.

If it took him a while and he has a metal pointed implement, how long would it take passengers to get into it?

 

[jon0844]

They didn't in the Huntingdon incident. They went to find a member of train staff. People react in very unexpected ways, and official notices saying "don't do this as we will fine you £x" don't help.

I know, and besides the awkward location, I think that it wasn't so much warning stickers (as these aren't that easy to see either, being right in the corner by the door - which is fairly dark at night too) but that people don't seem to even know what to do in an emergency.

They obviously don't look at the safety notices, and many might not even know there's an alarm or what happens if they activate it.

Thankfully these incidents don't happen often, but if there had been a few incidents like this - I wonder if the circumstances might have been different if there were other passengers on the train, or the time of day (e.g. commuters vs occasional leisure travellers). Even the RAIB wouldn't likely be able to come up with any conclusions on that.

Positioning alarms in a good place should be early on in the design stages. It's interesting to see how they're now much lower down on new trains (often with covers that simply lift up or shield the button). The Cl365 alarms could never be activated by someone in a wheelchair, unless using the one in the disabled toilet.

 

[Death]

The problem that the RAIB report into the Huntingdon incident mentions is that although the EDR will stop the train straight away, passengers are instructed never to use it whilst the train is moving.

Depending on the type of incident, I will generally ignore any instructions like that out of hand. If my judgement in an emergency suggests that the best course of action involves use of the EDR either for immediate evacuation and/or mandatory E-brakes, then I will use it irrespective of whether the train is travelling at 14mph or 140mph.
That said - Especially at higher speeds - I would try to form a safety barrier with my own body (Via using grab rails and firm footing etc) to replace the door that I was releasing and stop anybody falling out if they were caught unawares by my reaction to the emergency.

Another problem though - And one that this thread brings into the spotlight - Is that not all pax alarms trigger an emergency brake application (EBA) and actually stop the train...And applying Murphy's Law to that subject, here's how pax alarms can be expected to operate during an emergency...

• Where a passenger is taken ill, realises that they're on the wrong train, or something else that is best resolved at the next available station; The pax alarm will trigger the sharpest EBA in history and balls-up the train's computer in the process.
• In the event of a fire, gas/toxin release, bomb detonation or train seperation; The pax alarm will simply operate a blinking light on the driver's control desk and/or an intercom with no EBA whatsoever.

As a result of that and the fact a passenger never knows exactly what'll happen in the event of using a pax alarm, it limits the "known" options for the passenger down to a very small number. :roll:

Example: If I come across a passenger who's seriously ill and needs immediate detrainment at the next available platform, do I hit the pax alarm? If it intercoms the driver without an EBA than that's perfect...I can tell him what's going on, and request a stop at the first opportunity. If it triggers an EBA though, that passenger is f***ed...We'd be stopped in a place where the emergency services can't reach us easily, can't airlift the passenger out if it's an OHLE'd line, and EBAing the train only to restart it again would lose valuable minutes that could mean the difference between life and Death for said sick passenger!
Because of my uncertainty in this kind of situation and not knowing for sure if the pax alarm will EBA the train or not, my only option would be to get another passenger to attend to the casualty, run through to the front of the train as fast as possible, and knock loudly/force my way into the drivers cab to make my report! hock:

In contrast to this, the emergency options on the Hamburg S-Bahn trains are very well arranged and place the three essential tools required at the passenger's immediate disposal:

• Nothalt (Emergency brake): Triggers an immediate EBA and alerts driver. Intended for door traps, train seperations, fires, bombs, or other clear e-stop incidents.
• Notruf (Passenger alarm): Alerts driver and connects pax to driver via direct intercom without EBA. Intended for passenger sickness, passenger distress, fights/antisocial behaviour, and other "Stop where assistance available" incidents.
• Notentrieglung (Emergency door release): Releases door locking along with EBA if train is moving. For serious fires and similar where passengers are in immediate danger and evacuation is required. (HVV S-Bahns don't have interconnecting passageways).

I once had to use the Notruf in an event a few years ago when I came across a passenger who appeared not to be breathing, and in my mind needed immediate medical attention. Because I had immediate communication with the driver, I was able to inform him of the situation that I'd come across and he was able to have the Rettungsdienst (Paramedics) meet the train at the next station - And because the train kept moving throughout, no time was lost. On one of our own trains though, using the pax alarm could've EBA'd the train and made the situation altogether much worse! hock:
It eventually turned out that the passenger in question had simply drunk himself into such a stupor that his body had gone into a hibernative state, and the Paramedics managed to bring him around after a fair while...But personally, I'd say that I reacted in the correct way to that incident - Whether the passenger concerned had inflicted it all upon himself or not.

To summerise this mass of a textwall:
Not only do all of these Bloody "abuse shields" need immediate removal on safety grounds, but the three seperate devices listed above for the S-Bahn need to be made available on our own trains as well. The handling of an emergency situation is mostly reactive 99% of the time, and not knowing whether the pax alarm will do what's needed in any specific situation will cause passengers to waste valuable time determining whether or not they ought to operate it or the EDR.
And then of course there's the 30-odd minutes needed for the passenger to break their way through the "abuse shield" and actually activate the device that they've identitfied as the most appropriate for the situation... :roll:hock:

 

[pendolino]

Depending on the type of incident, I will generally ignore any instructions like that out of hand. If my judgement in an emergency suggests that the best course of action involves use of the EDR either for immediate evacuation and/or mandatory E-brakes, then I will use it irrespective of whether the train is travelling at 14mph or 140mph.
That said - Especially at higher speeds - I would try to form a safety barrier with my own body (Via using grab rails and firm footing etc) to replace the door that I was releasing and stop anybody falling out if they were caught unawares by my reaction to the emergency.

Another problem though - And one that this thread brings into the spotlight - Is that not all pax alarms trigger an emergency brake application (EBA) and actually stop the train...And applying Murphy's Law to that subject, here's how pax alarms can be expected to operate during an emergency...

• Where a passenger is taken ill, realises that they're on the wrong train, or something else that is best resolved at the next available station; The pax alarm will trigger the sharpest EBA in history and balls-up the train's computer in the process.
• In the event of a fire, gas/toxin release, bomb detonation or train seperation; The pax alarm will simply operate a blinking light on the driver's control desk and/or an intercom with no EBA whatsoever.

As a result of that and the fact a passenger never knows exactly what'll happen in the event of using a pax alarm, it limits the "known" options for the passenger down to a very small number. :roll:

Example: If I come across a passenger who's seriously ill and needs immediate detrainment at the next available platform, do I hit the pax alarm? If it intercoms the driver without an EBA than that's perfect...I can tell him what's going on, and request a stop at the first opportunity. If it triggers an EBA though, that passenger is f***ed...We'd be stopped in a place where the emergency services can't reach us easily, can't airlift the passenger out if it's an OHLE'd line, and EBAing the train only to restart it again would lose valuable minutes that could mean the difference between life and Death for said sick passenger!
Because of my uncertainty in this kind of situation and not knowing for sure if the pax alarm will EBA the train or not, my only option would be to get another passenger to attend to the casualty, run through to the front of the train as fast as possible, and knock loudly/force my way into the drivers cab to make my report! hock:

<snip>

To summerise this mass of a textwall:
Not only do all of these Bloody "abuse shields" need immediate removal on safety grounds, but the three seperate devices listed above for the S-Bahn need to be made available on our own trains as well. The handling of an emergency situation is mostly reactive 99% of the time, and not knowing whether the pax alarm will do what's needed in any specific situation will cause passengers to waste valuable time determining whether or not they ought to operate it or the EDR.
And then of course there's the 30-odd minutes needed for the passenger to break their way through the "abuse shield" and actually activate the device that they've identitfied as the most appropriate for the situation... :roll:hock:

You sound like the last person I'd want to be involved in any sort of emergency, opening doors at 140mph, forcing your way into drivers cabs....... 'Gas/toxin release'? Are you serious?

And most of your post is inaccurate rubbish.

Seriously: stay away from the railway, please.

 

[robertclark125]

What we need to establish as well, and only he the passenger who got trapped can tell the investigators this, is why was he attempting to leave or enter the train when the doors were closing.

 

[ungreat]

The alarm is quite hard to find on a 365, and of course doesn't automatically stop the train.

Huntingdon did result in clear stickers being put up with arrows to a, frankly stupid, location for an alarm and emergency door release.

Sorry..but the passcom alarm DOES stop a 365.The driver can override it but only until a suitable stopping place is found

Stupid place...hmmmm..above the door....seems pretty logical to me!

Theres some idiot comments on this thread,some of which I believe are entirely made up to provoke discussion.I dont include yours Jon as yours is misinformation.

Most passengers are ok,but some dont even qualify as amoeba...my pet hate is them turning up late and holding the doors open whilst their fellows get tickets..oh for rotary cannons...and then having the guts to ask why we were late! Maybe you holding the doors open didnt help,eh?

 

[regulation9]

My 'guess' would be that the CCTV images do not confirm the content of this story.

 

[The_Stig]

Depending on the type of incident, I will generally ignore any instructions like that out of hand. If my judgement in an emergency suggests that the best course of action involves use of the EDR either for immediate evacuation and/or mandatory E-brakes, then I will use it irrespective of whether the train is travelling at 14mph or 140mph.
That said - Especially at higher speeds - I would try to form a safety barrier with my own body (Via using grab rails and firm footing etc) to replace the door that I was releasing and stop anybody falling out if they were caught unawares by my reaction to the emergency.

It is not your decision to stop the train. For all you could know the driver could be aware of the situation via conductor/ticket examiner/another passenger and have the appropriate responses at a set point. Releasing the doors could potentially make a bad situation worse.

How exactly would you stop someone falling out if you have both hands on the grab handles and legs keeping yourself steady?

Another problem though - And one that this thread brings into the spotlight - Is that not all pax alarms trigger an emergency brake application (EBA) and actually stop the train...And applying Murphy's Law to that subject, here's how pax alarms can be expected to operate during an emergency...

• Where a passenger is taken ill, realises that they're on the wrong train, or something else that is best resolved at the next available station; The pax alarm will trigger the sharpest EBA in history and balls-up the train's computer in the process.
• In the event of a fire, gas/toxin release, bomb detonation or train seperation; The pax alarm will simply operate a blinking light on the driver's control desk and/or an intercom with no EBA whatsoever.

As a result of that and the fact a passenger never knows exactly what'll happen in the event of using a pax alarm, it limits the "known" options for the passenger down to a very small number. :roll:

I am curious as to how an emergency brake application from a Pass Comm/Emergency handle will "balls-up the train's computer in the process". They are designed to be activated if required.

In the event of a train separation the train itself should apply an emergency brake application due to the breaking of train wires.

Example: If I come across a passenger who's seriously ill and needs immediate detrainment at the next available platform, do I hit the pax alarm? If it intercoms the driver without an EBA than that's perfect...I can tell him what's going on, and request a stop at the first opportunity. If it triggers an EBA though, that passenger is f***ed...We'd be stopped in a place where the emergency services can't reach us easily, can't airlift the passenger out if it's an OHLE'd line, and EBAing the train only to restart it again would lose valuable minutes that could mean the difference between life and Death for said sick passenger!
Because of my uncertainty in this kind of situation and not knowing for sure if the pax alarm will EBA the train or not, my only option would be to get another passenger to attend to the casualty, run through to the front of the train as fast as possible, and knock loudly/force my way into the drivers cab to make my report! hock:

Why not phone the emergency services yourself and wait until you have reached the next station and then pull the handle? If it does initiate an emergency brake then the driver needs to reset it before proceeding.

As for forcing your way into the cab- any driver I know would have you eating knuckles for trying to burst into his cab. Something that will hinder your casualties rescue.

In contrast to this, the emergency options on the Hamburg S-Bahn trains are very well arranged and place the three essential tools required at the passenger's immediate disposal:

• Nothalt (Emergency brake): Triggers an immediate EBA and alerts driver. Intended for door traps, train seperations, fires, bombs, or other clear e-stop incidents.
• Notruf (Passenger alarm): Alerts driver and connects pax to driver via direct intercom without EBA. Intended for passenger sickness, passenger distress, fights/antisocial behaviour, and other "Stop where assistance available" incidents.
• Notentrieglung (Emergency door release): Releases door locking along with EBA if train is moving. For serious fires and similar where passengers are in immediate danger and evacuation is required. (HVV S-Bahns don't have interconnecting passageways).

I once had to use the Notruf in an event a few years ago when I came across a passenger who appeared not to be breathing, and in my mind needed immediate medical attention. Because I had immediate communication with the driver, I was able to inform him of the situation that I'd come across and he was able to have the Rettungsdienst (Paramedics) meet the train at the next station - And because the train kept moving throughout, no time was lost. On one of our own trains though, using the pax alarm could've EBA'd the train and made the situation altogether much worse! hock:
It eventually turned out that the passenger in question had simply drunk himself into such a stupor that his body had gone into a hibernative state, and the Paramedics managed to bring him around after a fair while...But personally, I'd say that I reacted in the correct way to that incident - Whether the passenger concerned had inflicted it all upon himself or not.

To summerise this mass of a textwall:
Not only do all of these Bloody "abuse shields" need immediate removal on safety grounds, but the three seperate devices listed above for the S-Bahn need to be made available on our own trains as well. The handling of an emergency situation is mostly reactive 99% of the time, and not knowing whether the pax alarm will do what's needed in any specific situation will cause passengers to waste valuable time determining whether or not they ought to operate it or the EDR.
And then of course there's the 30-odd minutes needed for the passenger to break their way through the "abuse shield" and actually activate the device that they've identitfied as the most appropriate for the situation... :roll:hock:

Newer rolling stock has similar functions. The pass comms initiate a brake application but the driver has the ability to over-ride it to ascertain the best course of action. At some point though he will have to stop and reset it. Likewise, some older stock are having call for aid points installed. This provides a communication point to the driver without the brake application.

 

[PTF62]

Sorry..but the passcom alarm DOES stop a 365.The driver can override it but only until a suitable stopping place is found

In reality that has the same effect as not stopping the train.

An emergency handle can have two effects -

1. The train stops now.
2. The train doesn't stop now, but you speak to the driver.

Unless the standard procedure on 365s is that the driver ignores the override and lets the train stop, then the emergency handle doesn't stop the train.

As for the emergency handle being a sensible place over the door, apart from in an emergency it is not the natural thing to look at the ceiling, perhaps you could explain how someone not tall enough to reach it (short adults, children, people in wheelchairs), can use it?

 

[Firestarter]

[QUOTE Originally Posted by jonmorris0844]
.. but what could happen if a dispatcher saw it when the train was moving? How quick could they stop the train?

Good question. In the days of bat and flag dispatch FCC TL Pre-CL377 trains when dispatchers would stand on a central part of the platform with drivers dipping there heads out of cab windows waiting for the tip at least 90% of drivers even when pulling out the platform would stick there heads out the windows evens if it was just wave good bye. This would at least give you (the dispatcher) the chance to stop the train in emergency. Now with 377's and CD/RA dispatch and no heads popping out of windows, how do dispatchers stop the train as it leaving the platform. No idea, a question that's been asked a good few times with no good answer. I guess the answer will come when there been an emergency and a follow up investigation.

 

[Via Bank]

SWT's Desiro fleet (and probably other first-generation Desiros as well) initially had glass panels covering the driver/pax emergency intercoms and the emergency stop/door release levers, along with hammers to get at both the intercoms and the doors. IIRC, though, they were removed when it turned out that (a) the glass kept getting broken anyway, and (b) the presence of hammers to break open windows encouraged people to break out of a stationary or failed train when it was unnecessary.

Hence, we now have the situation where the emergency driver intercom and the emergency door release are unguarded. Accidental/nuisance activations seem to be extremely rare, though: I only ever remember seeing the intercom activated once, and that was during a geniuine emergency (when a passenger fainted on an extremely crowded Waterloo service during the snow timetable.)

It's worth noting that the locations on the Desiros are extremely logical (viz. German) as well: both sides of each vestibule get door releases by each door, and each vestibule also has an intercom lever. As well as the ones in the toilets, there are also a few in the saloon, especially on 450s, next to the wheelchair/bike areas. All are clearly indicated, and can be operated easily - but all are very difficult to operate accidentally.

 

[Death]

'Gas/toxin release'? Are you serious?

I'm thinking of terrorist events. Thankfully extremely rare, but still something that one could encounter if they were unlucky enough.

It is not your decision to stop the train. For all you could know the driver could be aware of the situation via conductor/ticket examiner/another passenger and have the appropriate responses at a set point. Releasing the doors could potentially make a bad situation worse.

Hmm...True, but what of a situation where something is clearly critical (Say, a bogie derailing) and warrants an immediate stop?

I am curious as to how an emergency brake application from a Pass Comm/Emergency handle will "balls-up the train's computer in the process". They are designed to be activated if required.

I'm speaking from personal experience regarding an incident a few years ago on an SWT service I was using ex Guildford. As we were passing onto the North Downs line, the train suddenly e-stopped due to a pax alarm activation which - For some reason - Couldn't be reset despite the Guard checking all of the call points and determining that there was no emergency on board. Eventually, they had to use a failed unit that we were dragging to tow us back into Guildford and find some other stock to run the service on because - No matter how hard they tried - They simply couldn't coax the trains computer out of the e-stop state!

Why not phone the emergency services yourself and wait until you have reached the next station and then pull the handle? If it does initiate an emergency brake then the driver needs to reset it before proceeding.

As a general rule, my mobile normally ends up turned off and buried somewhere in my bag on rail journeys as I never use it on-board. Because my phone takes an age to boot as well, it'd almost certainly work out quicker for me to run to the front, knock on the cab door, and inform the driver of what's going on - Rather than wait 45-60 seconds for my phone to get it's act together and ready to place a call!

An emergency handle can have two effects

1. The train stops now.
2. The train doesn't stop now, but you speak to the driver.

Unless the standard procedure on 365s is that the driver ignores the override and lets the train stop, then the emergency handle doesn't stop the train.

And that's the point I was trying to make in my previous post...The alarm will do one of the two things above, but which of those will it be? Don't forget also that what exactly the pax alarm does will vary between different classes of rolling stock (Even of similar designs) so even though the pax handle might e-brake a 165, it might simply intercom on the 365. Either way, the uncertainty (A "Pax alarm lottery?") doesn't help matters.

Again, in the case of the sick passenger it's best that the train doesn't stop at all, but continues to the next available station where assistance can easily be given...Whereas in the OP incident, the obvious need is for the train to halt as quickly as possible. During the few seconds for the driver to respond to the intercom and a passenger to shout "STOP - Passenger caught in doors" the train could easily have moved another 500m (Not including e-brake distance needed) which can't do the caught passenger much good! hock:

As for the emergency handle being a sensible place over the door, apart from in an emergency it is not the natural thing to look at the ceiling, perhaps you could explain how someone not tall enough to reach it (short adults, children, people in wheelchairs), can use it?

It's another of those Damned if ye do, damned if ye don't scenarios. Does one place the pax alarm at a height where mischievous children could reach it and set it off for a prank, or do they place that out of their reach and in doing so make it inaccessible to shorter adults/children who may have a genuine need to operate it?

The way they seem to have broken this down on the Hamburg S-Bahn is by placing the pax intercom at a height where all passengers can use it, but the e-brake and door releases are sited towards the top of the doors where one would need to be 5ft+ to reach them. In the case of kids or diabled passengers it does throw up the "Can't e-brake the train" problem mentioned above, but at least they can still contact the driver and simply shout "HALT!" which is better than the nothing they get on a 365!

 

[pendolino]

I'm speaking from personal experience regarding an incident a few years ago on an SWT service I was using ex Guildford. As we were passing onto the North Downs line, the train suddenly e-stopped due to a pax alarm activation which - For some reason - Couldn't be reset despite the Guard checking all of the call points and determining that there was no emergency on board. Eventually, they had to use a failed unit that we were dragging to tow us back into Guildford and find some other stock to run the service on because - No matter how hard they tried - They simply couldn't coax the trains computer out of the e-stop state!

How do you know that was a passcomm?

And they used a 'failed unit you were dragging' to 'tow you back to Guildford'? So the failed unit, apparently part of a train in service, miraculously started working again, and you were able to drag another unit, apparently with its brake in emergency, back to Guildford, even though the chances of NR allowing such a unit to be dragged are slim to none?

Excuse me if I sound incredulous.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And that's the point I was trying to make in my previous post...The alarm will do one of the two things above, but which of those will it be? Don't forget also that what exactly the pax alarm does will vary between different classes of rolling stock (Even of similar designs) so even though the pax handle might e-brake a 165, it might simply intercom on the 365. Either way, the uncertainty (A "Pax alarm lottery?") doesn't help matters.

The passcomm will apply the emergency brake in all cases, the difference is whether the driver is able to override it, which depends on stock.

Again, in the case of the sick passenger it's best that the train doesn't stop at all, but continues to the next available station where assistance can easily be given...Whereas in the OP incident, the obvious need is for the train to halt as quickly as possible. During the few seconds for the driver to respond to the intercom and a passenger to shout "STOP - Passenger caught in doors" the train could easily have moved another 500m (Not including e-brake distance needed) which can't do the caught passenger much good! hock:

Where the train stops to give assistance to an unwell passenger is the driver's call, not yours. The driver will have a much better idea of the best location to stop - maybe a track access point is closer and more accessible than continuing to the next station, maybe not. The driver's route knowledge and discussions with the signaller will identify the best course of action.

And 500m in a few seconds? That's pretty good acceleration from a standing start.

 

[The_Stig]

Hmm...True, but what of a situation where something is clearly critical (Say, a bogie derailing) and warrants an immediate stop?

That justifies not opening the doors, the coach would be bouncing around and opening the doors could lead to people being ejected from the train.

A driver will know if there is a problem as they get a feel for the trains that they drive.

I'm speaking from personal experience regarding an incident a few years ago on an SWT service I was using ex Guildford. As we were passing onto the North Downs line, the train suddenly e-stopped due to a pax alarm activation which - For some reason - Couldn't be reset despite the Guard checking all of the call points and determining that there was no emergency on board. Eventually, they had to use a failed unit that we were dragging to tow us back into Guildford and find some other stock to run the service on because - No matter how hard they tried - They simply couldn't coax the trains computer out of the e-stop state!

It could be a number of reasons to get an emergency brake activation. Checking the emergency points is one of a few things the on-board staff can do. If they can't find it it would not clear from the TMS/HMI mind you.

As a general rule, my mobile normally ends up turned off and buried somewhere in my bag on rail journeys as I never use it on-board. Because my phone takes an age to boot as well, it'd almost certainly work out quicker for me to run to the front, knock on the cab door, and inform the driver of what's going on - Rather than wait 45-60 seconds for my phone to get it's act together and ready to place a call!

Ah, just don't burst in or there may be the need for two ambulances!

 

[jon0844]

Sorry..but the passcom alarm DOES stop a 365.The driver can override it but only until a suitable stopping place is found

Stupid place...hmmmm..above the door....seems pretty logical to me!

Actually, it's fine for me too - as I am actually the saddo who DOES look around his environment and take info in, such as where alarms are. I'd do the same whether it's a train or plane. I have used a Cl365 alarm twice. Once the train was at King's Cross still (and the driver sorted it), the second time the train slowed down gradually - so neither an emergency brake application or a movement to the next station.

Neither time do I recall hearing anything to confirm I'd used the alarm, but given what was going on around me - that's just as likely me not hearing or not remembering.

I would say that for Joe Public (or the amoebas), it's not in the most obvious place - but, to be fair, since FCC put up the stickers it is easier to locate. The covers would be fine if they were of a sufficient quality to ensure the tab wouldn't pull through, as I witnessed when someone was being quite badly beaten up (which ended with a LOT of police and a dog to subdue the offender).

 

[daikilo]

Actually, it's fine for me too - as I am actually the saddo who DOES look around his environment and take info in, such as where alarms are. I'd do the same whether it's a train or plane. I have used a Cl365 alarm twice. Once the train was at King's Cross still (and the driver sorted it), the second time the train slowed down gradually - so neither an emergency brake application or a movement to the next station.

Neither time do I recall hearing anything to confirm I'd used the alarm, but given what was going on around me - that's just as likely me not hearing or not remembering.

I would say that for Joe Public (or the amoebas), it's not in the most obvious place - but, to be fair, since FCC put up the stickers it is easier to locate. The covers would be fine if they were of a sufficient quality to ensure the tab wouldn't pull through, as I witnessed when someone was being quite badly beaten up (which ended with a LOT of police and a dog to subdue the offender).

I am sure you did what you thought was right and pls continue.

Transport Police: Pls consider how you can help traincrew in such events.

dp

 

[O L Leigh]

What do you do when you stop on a platform where the doors open on the other side?

I've come off 313s where the driver has never come out to look at all - and just looked in the mirror on the right hand side of the train from the driver seat. Perhaps the mirror is fine, if you can see all through to the light at the end of the train - but at night, I'd question how effective looking in a mirror could be.

Does the WA route have many stations like that, with old-school mirrors?

We have only one station with a mirror and it works well provided that it's kept clean (and it is). If the station is well-lit enough to see from one end to the other by looking back it will be more than adequate for a mirror. It also shows the entire length of an 8 car train so there really is no need to look back or get out of the seat.

This is presumably the case at the GN location you're referring to. If the mirror is set perfectly to show the full length of the train from the seat, even if it is the opposite side, then there is no need to get out and look back.

O L Leigh

 

[Death]

How do you know that was a passcomm?

Because the Guard (And eventually the driver too) both started to walk up and down the length of the train checking the call points. The driver and Guard both stated that the brakes had been slammed on via pax alarm activation as well.

And they used a 'failed unit you were dragging' to 'tow you back to Guildford'? So the failed unit, apparently part of a train in service, miraculously started working again...

I don't think it was failed failed (I.E: Too borked to move) but it was definitely out of passenger service for some reason, otherwise after we'd been dragged back to Guildford we've most likely been allocated that unit for the stock replacement. This was a good few years ago now though, and I can't remember exactly why the unit was dead. A faint memory floating around suggests it might have been a problem with the trains AWS/ATP (Or similar equipment).
That wouldn't affect the units ability to form a dead part of a consist, but I believe it would've excluded the unit from pax service until repaired.

And 500m in a few seconds? That's pretty good acceleration from a standing start.

I just poked in the first figure that came to mind as I couldn't really work out exactly how far a train would travel from a standing start in the ~five seconds I was thinking of.
Maybe 50m or 250m might be more accurate, but the point remains the same: The longer it takes the driver/train to engage an e-stop in a situation like that in the OP, the further the caught passenger is going to get dragged. And though I've never been in any situation like that, I'd imagine that every metre must feel more like a mile to the poor person involved! hock:

 

[YorkshireBear]

Once happened to me at dinting :/ guard didnt even bother checking

for anyone who doesn't know dinting is on a very tight curve

luckily doors just openned again cos something stopped them closing....

 

[Pumbaa]

No, but there are times when a driver is instructed not to use the passcom override, and that includes when pulling out of a platform precisely for this reason.

But that assumes that the passcom is operated in the first place.

O L Leigh

Is this just for DOO in your area, or a blanket rule?

I've had PassCom pulled twice as a passenger (that I've directly observed) in both times pulling out of a station, and both times the driver kept moving (first instance 350 pulling out of Stone, second instance 185 pulling out of Birchwood). I'd be interested to know if its a regional variation. In both instances (to the best of my knowledge) nothing untoward occurred!

 

[pendolino]

Is this just for DOO in your area, or a blanket rule?

I've had PassCom pulled twice as a passenger (that I've directly observed) in both times pulling out of a station, and both times the driver kept moving (first instance 350 pulling out of Stone, second instance 185 pulling out of Birchwood). I'd be interested to know if its a regional variation. In both instances (to the best of my knowledge) nothing untoward occurred!

It's in the rule book:

10.10 Passenger communication apparatus (PCA)
If the PCA is operated, you must, if possible, avoid stopping the train:
• on a viaduct
• in a tunnel
• in any other place where it might be difficult to deal with the emergency.

You can use the emergency brake override, if provided, to assist you in stopping at a suitable location.

<snip>

However, you must stop the train immediately if:
• you have reason to believe that the train may be in danger, or
• the apparatus is operated as the train is leaving a station.

<snip>

'as the train is leaving a station' is taken to mean 'if any part of the train is still in the platform'. On the Underground there are marker boards telling the driver when he's clear of the platform, but on NR, it's down to the driver's judgement, and it's not always particularly easy to tell.

 

[TDK]

"'I had to hop a bit until I managed to pull free. If it had been my other leg I wouldn’t have got it out because I broke my kneecap a while ago.'"

"He said: 'My knee is twice the size it was because of this. I've ended up ruining all the hard work I've done with my physiotherapist and I am so annoyed. It's all been undone.

'I'm also having flashbacks about what happened and what could have happened, I could have been dragged down the line. I went out on a really nice birthday trip and then I nearly get myself killed.'"

Taken from the Mails report!

Firstly unless there is a failure of the interlock system a train cannot move with the doors even slightly open due to interlock, as for a pass com not enough time for anyone to react and why did Ms stone not stop the train if this incident was as serious as the Mail is making out.

If he was trapped for 30 seconds he has won the world speed record for hopping and at 5 foot above the train has long legs.

Once this incident is fully investigated then everyone will have the answers until then it is entertaining watching the "it may have been this" from the folks on here who many do not have a clue on the correct working of trains with DOO and automatic doors with both brake and traction interlock.

Reading what the guy has said to the mail I will leave it up to you what he may or may not want from this incident, I hope the evidence backs up his claims.

 

[Aictos]

Firstly unless there is a failure of the interlock system a train cannot move with the doors even slightly open due to interlock, as for a pass com not enough time for anyone to react and why did Ms stone not stop the train if this incident was as serious as the Mail is making out.

Exactly, I was dispatching a pair of 313s yesterday and the driver couldn't gain interlock to be able to move as one of the doors wouldn't fully close as they were just slightly open by a inch or two so after some attention from the driver managed to gain interlock to be able to move so I can't see how a train could move with someone's foot in the door.

I look quite forward to seeing the RAIB report on this.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not so interested in the RAIB report as I am to hear how much compo the 'victim' will be demanding.

 

[TDK]

I'm not so interested in the RAIB report as I am to hear how much compo the 'victim' will be demanding.

When you file for compensation there is a balance between fault of the company and neglegence on behalf of the victim, in this case after being to a party the evidence may not be a clean cut as the victim expects all depending on how neglegent the companies insurers belive the victim may have been, for instance if he was under the infuence of alcohol for instance or trying to mess with the doors he will most likely receive a fraction of what he may expect, if the evidence proves he was acting responsibily and there was a fault on train then he may get what he expects to get.

 

[dfishw]

oh thats bad!!!!!! But i thought doors had automatic sensors that would only close if nothing obstructed them precisely to prevent something like this happening. Im also suprised no one saw it before the train was allowed to depart......if it was me trapped i think all id do is just scream for help and hope it wasnt a fast train!

 

[MCR247]

I really doubt his ankle was actually trapped. His trouser leg, maybe.

 

[jon0844]

If his ankle was trapped, I would think that even before the report is completed - we'd suddenly be hearing about an entire class of train being whipped out of service for emergency checks.

Seriously, could such a train continue in service with the ability to allow the doors to lock with an ankle trapped in it?

That makes me guess (and it IS a guess) that the people who need to know already know it wasn't an ankle!