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Tesco Train - Why Diesel under the wires?

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dave59

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I wonder why DRS are using double 66's on the some of the WCML intermodal trains. Also DB operating a number of 1200 tonne class 4 trains running entirely under the wires. Is there a renewed cultural aversion to electric haulage?
 
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guilbert

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It's pretty rare to see any electric-hauled freight. I agree it seems a bit daft though.
 

pdeaves

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Is there any 'hidden' effect cause by whatever the locos need to work next (just the same as such-and-such service may have to be a two-car unit if its next service takes it up the tiny branch line)? I don't know, just wondering. So it may not be quite as simple as 'they only need to do...'.
 

GB

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Cost and convivence can be one reason. But also loco availability, driver availability and pathing requirements. When we used to run the Dagenham-Garston car train it would be booked for Electric but would often run with a 66 due to not having a 92 (or a driver that signs them) available, an issue with the 08 (or again no one that signs them) or booked via a route that is not 100% AC.
 

dgl

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Of course with DRS they are in the unique situation that they are the only operators in Britain with electric locomotives that can do short distances without electricity, emphasis on "short", though if they are tied up with other work or the load is greater than what the small diesel can handle (both in the case of weight and time taken to get up to the required speed) then what is the most environmentally friendly or cheapest won't matter.
 
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furnessvale

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The type of traction used is not decided by one train. It is decided by the whole diagram for that loco which can cover several services.

With our disjointed electrification, if one service in a diagram needs to be diesel, the whole diagram is diesel.
 

norbitonflyer

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Are the terminals at both ends of the route electrified? I can see a potential problem with lifting containers on and off wagons if they are!
 

fgwrich

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Of course with DRS they are in the unique situation that they are the only operators in Britain with electric locomotives that can do short distances without electricity, emphasis on "short", though if they are tied up with other work or the load is greater than what the small diesel can handle (both in the case of weight and time taken to get up to the required speed) then what is the most environmentally friendly or cheapest won't matter.

At least with DRS running the Marston car trains, the it has allowed them to utilise the 88s even further now.
 

jfollows

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Are the terminals at both ends of the route electrified? I can see a potential problem with lifting containers on and off wagons if they are!
Yes, but wasn't that the reason for the class 88 locomotives, so that they could use their 950hp diesel engine at the ends of the route but electric traction otherwise?
Some freightliners, eg Trafford Park to Felixstowe, manage to be electrically hauled even though they need to change engines at Ipswich. I still remember with pleasure the pair of 86s going through Wilmslow early one morning a year or more ago as I was waiting for the passenger service to Manchester.
I agree that it's a huge shame that so many freight services aren't electrically hauled, but at least some of them are.
 

alangla

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There was a story in the Scottish Electrification thread I think of an 88 getting its pan tangled up in foliage on the Grangemouth branch. Why said foliage wasn’t immediately butchered is beyond me, but the train switched to diesel instead. If an 88 doesn’t work on that flow then the whole concept of the locomotive is bust IMHO. They weren’t built for running in pairs with a single flask wagon.
 

dave59

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Looks like some of the DRS workings have actually reverted to diesel haulage (4S43) and some are shown as a 66 or 2x66 but end up with an 88.(4S44) As has been mentioned there could be other work taking priority and/or availability issues so more pure electric locos are needed. DB policy is to use electric wherever possible but they to continue to use the oil burners - 4S49 4M30 are examples today.
 

deepthought

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The reason at the moment is due to damage to the pantographs of several of the class 88s caused by ice on the overhead wires in the last week.
 

The Planner

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Looks like some of the DRS workings have actually reverted to diesel haulage (4S43) and some are shown as a 66 or 2x66 but end up with an 88.(4S44) As has been mentioned there could be other work taking priority and/or availability issues so more pure electric locos are needed. DB policy is to use electric wherever possible but they to continue to use the oil burners - 4S49 4M30 are examples today.
4S49 is normally diesel I think, DB are looking to get it over to 90s at some point though.
 

55002

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The reason at the moment is due to damage to the pantographs of several of the class 88s caused by ice on the overhead wires in the last week.
That makes sense as every time I’ve seen these, they have been 88s
 

dave59

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The reason at the moment is due to damage to the pantographs of several of the class 88s caused by ice on the overhead wires in the last week.
Thanks, that explains it. There used to be an 87 stabled at Carlisle as an "ice breaker" but no longer.
 

dgl

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And the Clubcard points on the diesel when refuelling...
I wouldn't want be stuck waiting for that to fill up at the local Tesco filling station, and then to make matters worse the driver goes in to the shop to buy a load of crap.
 

geoffk

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Many electric locos have been sold for further service in Bulgaria and Romania and now there are not enough on UK rails. Class 86 put in 55 years service. In contrast the 92s seem to have been a complete waste of money, with fewer than half of the 46 built still operating in the UK. I agree that there should be a financial incentive to use electric traction and stored out of use locos should be returned to service where practical. How much rail freight is there through the Channel Tunnel now?
 

Dr Hoo

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This thread raises a number of issues.

Whether we like it or not, electric haulage of freight is usually quite 'awkward'.

There are several small fleets of generally old and/or technically obsolete locomotives that will typically provide poor availability because of shortage of spares, the 'only' depot being awkwardly placed in relation to some traffic flows, difficulty in maintaining driver competence and so on.

Operationally many terminals will require an extra shunt locomotive and staff to deal with final positioning off the wires that can be avoided with diesel main line traction.

Because much freight runs overnight it can be subject to diversion onto non-electrified alternative routes or face issues with isolations.

Ironically the recent growth in some freight sectors actually makes it less attractive to use electrics. For example when Daventry only saw trains to Central Scotland it could be an 'all electric' operation. But now that there are regular trains to non-electrified places like Wentloog and Tees diesels may well offer more efficient diagramming.

Some network upgrades and gauge clearance such as Felixstowe-Nuneaton and the Joint Line through Lincolnshire have led to freights being diverted off former electrified routes via London and the core ECML.

It is well known that the freight operators make very little profit (if any) according to ORR figures and so any 'penalties' for using diesel would simply lead to price rises to end customers and risk of loss of traffic to even more damaging road haulage.

Medium distance intermodal freight often needs Mode Shift Revenue Support to make it 'viable' as it is. Any increase in costs risks needing a significant increase in taxpayer 'subsidy'.

There may be sufficient environmental benefits from more electric haulage to make such government support worthwhile but it is a difficult ask when the economy is being so badly damaged by Covid.
 

dave59

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Interesting post. I think most appreciate the difficulties other routes pose but intermodal flows on the northern WCML for e.g cannot be diverted and seeing sluggish diesels goes completely against the grain, especially when so much renewable energy is produced within sight of the route. Thankfully the vast majority of passenger and freight is now electric again here as it was under BR in the 1970's. Then it was mandated for ideological reasons but I suspect now it is pathing and performance demands helping to force the issue. Certainly an awful lot of kerosene has been burnt under the wires in the interim.
 

The Planner

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Interesting post. I think most appreciate the difficulties other routes pose but intermodal flows on the northern WCML for e.g cannot be diverted and seeing sluggish diesels goes completely against the grain, especially when so much renewable energy is produced within sight of the route. Thankfully the vast majority of passenger and freight is now electric again here as it was under BR in the 1970's. Then it was mandated for ideological reasons but I suspect now it is pathing and performance demands helping to force the issue. Certainly an awful lot of kerosene has been burnt under the wires in the interim.
We will occasionally agree with some FOCs to divert via the ECML.
 

dan4291

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Wonder if the class 93s order by ROG will be a solution for this sort of problem in the short term, with electrification of more routes a longer term aim.
 

GB

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Wonder if the class 93s order by ROG will be a solution for this sort of problem in the short term, with electrification of more routes a longer term aim.

Depends on the weight of the train and topography of route I guess. 1800hp will not cope well with a 2000 tonne train...and the price of a 93 might be a bit off putting too for some operators.
 
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