TfGM branded buses

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anti-pacer

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Saw something on Granada Reports tonight (which I can get on Virgin) and they are planning to introduce a county-wide Smartcard system for Greater Manchester, as well as giving all buses, regardless of operator one livery, like TfL have.

What colour scheme would you like to see? I favour a classier version of the orange and white that GMT had. I always knew I was in Greater Manchester when I saw that livery.
 
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Bungle965

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Saw something on Granada Reports tonight (which I can get on Virgin) and they are planning to introduce a county-wide Smartcard system for Greater Manchester, as well as giving all buses, regardless of operator one livery, like TfL have.

What colour scheme would you like to see? I favour a classier version of the orange and white that GMT had. I always knew I was in Greater Manchester when I saw that livery.

The countywide smart card is already available on the majority of bus companies, and is soon to be rolled out onto the tram network also.
More information is available here. https://www.getmethere.com/web/tfgm_customer/home
Sam
 

martin2345uk

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Saw something on Granada Reports tonight (which I can get on Virgin) and they are planning to introduce a county-wide Smartcard system for Greater Manchester, as well as giving all buses, regardless of operator one livery, like TfL have.
.

BIB - anything online about this? I cannae see anything...
 

WatcherZero

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Bus Services Bill published by Government today, gives Combined Authorities Mayors the power to franchise bus services.

Looking at Summary of measures;

Quality Partnership schemes no longer require new infrastructure to be built.
New Enhanced Partnership scheme allowing agreements to improve quality of bus services if a majority of bus operators agree, local authorities can take over bus registration from Traffic Commissioners.
Franchising where a directly elected mayor has followed a democratic process, can determine which bus services are operated and bus companies have to bid to operate them as well as apply for a permit to operate extra non-franchise specified services.
Bus operators will be required to provide open data about timetables, punctuality, fares and real time information.
Local Authorities now legally have to consider bus linkages and multi operator ticketing scheme compatability.
Operators have to provide local authorities data on passenger numbers and revenue of any service they intend to cancel and share It with rival bidders to operate a service.
Rail replacement bus services no longer have to be registered as bus services. (I guess they are now rail replacement coach services?)
Closes loopholes (exact technical specifications) allowing operators to implement outdated ticketing technology.
Government can grant other regions the power to franchise but wont be automatic right without an elected mayor. Currently only Cornwall has been given permission without a Mayor.

To become a franchise area local authorities have to produce justifiable reasons, follow a democratic process and have their business plan evaluated by an independent arbiter.
Bill expected to be passed early 2017 with first franchised bus services 2018/19
 
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anti-pacer

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BIB - anything online about this? I cannae see anything...

You may have to watch Granada Reports. If you're in Manchester you should have it on catch-up as ITV Granada is your default region. Maybe they'll show it on the late evening bulletin.
 

aformeruser

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as well as giving all buses, regardless of operator one livery, like TfL have.

Some routes may cause complications. If Metro also want a generic livery what livery will First use for Huddersfield-Oldham-Manchester services?

While the 88 Knutsford-Altrincham via Wilmslow, 200 Wilmslow-Manchester Airport and 289 Northwich-Altrincham are Cheshire East contracted services. The 200 and 289 regularly get vehicles in what was generic 'Cheshire Connect' livery. GHA, Bakerbus, D&G and High Peak all used to have buses in that livery but only GHA still use that livery.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Rail replacement bus services no longer have to be registered as bus services. (I guess they are now rail replacement coach services?)

Currently a bus or coach service should be registered as a bus service if the distance between stops is less than 20 miles and there are no restrictions on pick-up/set-down. For instance, a NX coach can call at both Manchester Airport and Manchester Coach station without registered as a bus service if it doesn't carry passengers only going between the Airport and city centre.

Bus preservation groups seem to get around registration by running services for free but charging for a program (which includes the timetables the buses will be running to.)
 

radamfi

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When London tendering started in the 80s, private companies were allowed to use their own liveries. In the early 90s, some people were concerned that the traditional tourist face of the London bus might be lost if most buses weren't red, so it was mandated that buses in central London had to be predominately red. Some buses were more red than others. Operators decided it was too much hassle to have some buses in red and some not so decided to paint all their London buses in red. Given that most buses were mostly red anyway, TfL decided to mandate that all buses should be all over red.

So it does not necessarily follow that all buses would be the same colour under franchising. In the Netherlands, where nearly all buses outside the three main cities are franchised, operators generally use their own livery.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some routes may cause complications. If Metro also want a generic livery what livery will First use for Huddersfield-Oldham-Manchester services?

If you look at the Dutch example, where you have buses crossing between areas you assign the whole route to one franchise. You can of course still have co-operation between the two authorities on timetables, fares and liveries.
 

WestCoast

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I think a uniform livery can look quite iconic in a city. For me, London wouldn't be London without its red buses. I prefer simple and classic to a lot of these modern "cool" liveries.

I don't think it matters to have the odd exception for cross-border services etc, those exist in London too.

Orange or maroon/cream would certainly be iconically Greater Manchester, but I have feeling they'd choose yellow to match Metrolink. Manchester would look like Berlin in that case!
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Giant airbrush in Standedge cutting.

How many First buses on the 184 bus service from Manchester to Huddersfield take this new diversion in Standedge cutting?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Orange or maroon/cream would certainly be iconically Greater Manchester, but I have feeling they'd choose yellow to match Metrolink. Manchester would look like Berlin in that case!

Have any comments been forthcoming from TfGM with regards the matter of a universal TfGM livery being applied?

London can do what it likes...it usually does...:roll:
 

aformeruser

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I think a uniform livery can look quite iconic in a city. For me, London wouldn't be London without its red buses. I prefer simple and classic to a lot of these modern "cool" liveries.

I don't think it matters to have the odd exception for cross-border services etc, those exist in London too.

Orange or maroon/cream would certainly be iconically Greater Manchester, but I have feeling they'd choose yellow to match Metrolink. Manchester would look like Berlin in that case!

I thought the yellow buses in Berlin ran the routes where the tramline was ripped up following the Berlin wall going up and non-yellow buses run the bus routes that didn't used to be trams.
 

radamfi

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If there had to be a uniform colour then yellow would make most sense, even though the romantic in me would prefer orange! London, bizarrely, changed from using red to green for their trams.
 

edwin_m

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How many First buses on the 184 bus service from Manchester to Huddersfield take this new diversion in Standedge cutting?

One every hour, and have done under various route numbers and operators for the best part of a century. Are you thinking of the same Standedge Cutting as I am, the one where the A62 goes over the Pennine Ridge?
 

323235

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So does this mean the end of single operator day tickets? This is one thing Manchester currently has which London doesn't .
 

jp4712

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HAS to be orange, please. Pretty pretty please. If Greater Manchester wants to create a sense of identity I can think of no better way.
 

WestCoast

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I thought the yellow buses in Berlin ran the routes where the tramline was ripped up following the Berlin wall going up and non-yellow buses run the bus routes that didn't used to be trams.

Possibly in the past, but nowadays most BVG vehicles have a version of the yellow livery, also carried by the trams and U-Bahn trains.
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So does this mean the end of single operator day tickets? This is one thing Manchester currently has which London doesn't .

In pursuit of a greater level of integration across GM I cannot see why this is undesirable. Understandably it would be a problem if the fares increase substantially but one hopes TfGM would try to avoid this. Although, on the other hand, that might be too optimistic.
 
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AB93

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So does this mean the end of single operator day tickets? This is one thing Manchester currently has which London doesn't .

It would do, yes. They're what the majority of people need & buy, and they're cheaper the London equivalent £4.50 cap.

Obviously it depends on how many trips you make, but some people will loose out... I don't think the politicians will make that obvious until it happens though!
 
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radamfi

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So does this mean the end of single operator day tickets? This is one thing Manchester currently has which London doesn't .

But the typical Londoner would probably only see one bus "operator" in London and is TfL. Most would probably be aware that the services are run by a number of private companies but they would see them as mere subcontractors.
 

WestCoast

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It would do, yes. They're what the majority of people need & buy, and they're cheaper the London equivalent £4.50 cap.

Obviously it depends on how many trips you make, but some people will loose out... I don't think the politicians will make that obvious until it happens though!

A valid point. However, I'd argue that GM doesn't really benefit from having multiple bus operators from a pricing point of view. Here in the Centro WM region, National Express West Midlands offer a £4.20 peak/£3.80 off-peak Daysaver, which would cover you for the vast majority of bus travel in the entire region (larger than GM). Theoretically, you could travel all the way from Stafford to Leamington Spa (60 odd miles) by bus on that ticket, but it equally makes crossing Birmingham by bus very simple. It strikes me as much better value than, say, a Stagecoach Manchester Dayrider at £4.00.

TfGM need to decrease their System One pricing for better integration. Their bus, train and tram off-peak daysaver seems pricey at £8.70. The equivalent ticket would be £6.50 in the Centro area.
 
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aformeruser

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If there had to be a uniform colour then yellow would make most sense, even though the romantic in me would prefer orange! London, bizarrely, changed from using red to green for their trams.

I think there's two further issues with TfGM specifying yellow:
1. Merseytravel branding is yellow and I imagine some bus routes will run between GM and Merseyside. (TfGM went for black and white branding when they got rid of the GMPTE name.)
2. If someone catches a yellow bus with a First logo followed by a yellow Metrolink tram they may get the impression First operate Metrolink services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They wouldn't use Yellow, due to the dedicated school buses being Yellow.;)

A number of operators have used predominately yellow buses on public services in GM since yellow school school buses were introduced - Cumfybus, South Lancs Travel, JPT and possibly others as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In pursuit of a greater level of integration across GM I cannot see why this is undesirable. Understandably it would be a problem if the fares increase substantially but one hopes TfGM would try to avoid this. Although, on the other hand, that might be too optimistic.

Question is perhaps what happens if you travel across the county border using the same operator (possibly involving a change of bus.) Will you be forced to buy multiple tickets instead of a regional day/week ticket for the operator you travel with?
 

radamfi

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2. If someone catches a yellow bus with a First logo followed by a yellow Metrolink tram they may get the impression First operate Metrolink services.

It depends how discreetly displayed the logos are. For example, Copenhagen has a similar route by route tendering system to London and if I remember rightly, the logo doesn't even appear on the front or boarding side and only a small logo is displayed on the offside below the driver. So most people wouldn't notice what company is running the bus.
 

martin2345uk

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nidave on SkyScraperCity forum has done a mock up, I love it!

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=342401&page=449

 

nidave

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It depends how discreetly displayed the logos are. For example, Copenhagen has a similar route by route tendering system to London and if I remember rightly, the logo doesn't even appear on the front or boarding side and only a small logo is displayed on the offside below the driver. So most people wouldn't notice what company is running the bus.

In London they do have the logos like the mockup above - its small. I think people are smart enough to understand its a service provided by a company.
 

martin2345uk

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Oh hey Dave I didn't know you were on here too! :) Hope you don't mind me posting your picture..!
 

aformeruser

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I can't see Arriva liking that mock-up as the 263 is currently an Arriva Sapphire route where all those suggested benefits already exist. Whoever did that obviously doesn't see windows as being for the benefit of passengers and it's not even as though it's blocking out the windows to get revenue from advertising. Plus there has to be a side destination display to meet accessibility requirements - putting the usual route on the livery isn't enough.
 

nidave

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Oh hey Dave I didn't know you were on here too! :) Hope you don't mind me posting your picture..!

heheh of course I am here - what geek would not be :)

Had a go with a double decker (apologies for the quality it was hard to find an image I liked)


I know the route names are all over the place before anyone starts... blame the original artist.
 
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