• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TfL 15H Routemaster service unlikely to return post-COVID

Status
Not open for further replies.

londonteacher

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2018
Messages
662
It might draw tourists but does it draw a profit or break even? If not, then it shouldn't return as a TFL service. With reductions in other places it would be hard to explain why they are subsidising a service that there are already other bus routes duplicating it.

If it was to return by TFL, then they should create a new tourist route passing most major landmarks as that would make more money. The current 15H route only passes three places of interest Tower of London, St Paul's Cathedral and Royal Courts of Justice. A service that extends from Trafalgar Square to the Houses of Parliament then parallel to the South Bank returning to the Tower of London would be much better and could make money rather than a loss!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If it was to return by TFL, then they should create a new tourist route passing most major landmarks as that would make more money. The current 15H route only passes three places of interest Tower of London, St Paul's Cathedral and Royal Courts of Justice. A service that extends from Trafalgar Square to the Houses of Parliament then parallel to the South Bank returning to the Tower of London would be much better and could make money rather than a loss!

If you want a touristy route then the former RV1 wouldn't be a bad bet - but it was somewhat underused, so maybe not. There's also the PSVAR angle to deal with, I'm not sure what their workaround was given that duplicate coaches have to be PSVAR as well as the service car (something I've long found a bit silly).
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
If you want a touristy route then the former RV1 wouldn't be a bad bet - but it was somewhat underused, so maybe not. There's also the PSVAR angle to deal with, I'm not sure what their workaround was given that duplicate coaches have to be PSVAR as well as the service car (something I've long found a bit silly).
Operators have to apply to the DfT for a "special authorisation" to run non-compliant buses on local services. This is vehicle-specific and time-limited. Criteria for granting include if the route is mirrored exactly by a more frequent compliant service or if the service is primarily operated for tourists and advertised separately from the main network. The latter is how tourist-orientated operators are able to continue using Routemasters, eg Ghost Bus, Afternoon Tea.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,025
Location
West Wiltshire
If you want a touristy route then the former RV1 wouldn't be a bad bet - but it was somewhat underused, so maybe not. There's also the PSVAR angle to deal with, I'm not sure what their workaround was given that duplicate coaches have to be PSVAR as well as the service car (something I've long found a bit silly).

Re PVSAR, I think there were 10 Routemasters, and they only need a few each day to operate the service. As the service was only summer weekends and bank holidays, I think they were able to apply the heritage vehicle exemption (something like max 20 days per year, on vehicles over 20 years old) by limiting each one to 20 days usage. Possibly why fleet never got cut to 7 when service was cut back from daily.
 
Last edited:

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
Re PVSAR, I think there were 10 Routemasters, and they only need a few each day to operate the service. As the service was only summer weekends and bank holidays, I think they were able to apply the heritage vehicle exemption (something like max 20 days per year, on vehicles over 20 years old) by limiting each one to 20 days usage. Possibly why fleet never got cut to 7 when service was cut back from daily.
They were issued with Special Authorisation Certificates.
 

67thave

Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
100
Location
Long Island
And don't the San Francisco trams have a visitor appeal?
If you're referring to the actual heritage tram lines in San Francisco (E Embarcadero and F Market), then yes, they do appeal to both tourists and locals alike.
If you're referring to the much more famous cable car network (often incorrectly referred to as trams), then they essentially solely have visitor appeal. Few locals use them, partially because they have a much higher base fare and the areas they serve are covered by frequent bus and trolleybus routes.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
9,934
If you're referring to the actual heritage tram lines in San Francisco (E Embarcadero and F Market), then yes, they do appeal to both tourists and locals alike.
If you're referring to the much more famous cable car network (often incorrectly referred to as trams), then they essentially solely have visitor appeal. Few locals use them, partially because they have a much higher base fare and the areas they serve are covered by frequent bus and trolleybus routes.
So they're a bespoke service aimed at tourists and with higher fares. Therein lies the difference.
 

CBlue

Member
Joined
30 Mar 2020
Messages
799
Location
East Angular
Hardly surprised TfL wanted shot of the service. Even when they operated more frequently I remember hearing Stagecoach struggled to keep the Dartmasters serviceable.

The costs of running that plus a two-person crew isn't going to be a money-spinner. That's why the other tourist attractions involving them have a USP other than "it's an old bus"
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Hardly surprised TfL wanted shot of the service. Even when they operated more frequently I remember hearing Stagecoach struggled to keep the Dartmasters serviceable.

The costs of running that plus a two-person crew isn't going to be a money-spinner. That's why the other tourist attractions involving them have a USP other than "it's an old bus"
Yeah. Only a tiny handful of enthusiasts are going to be specifically interested in riding Routemasters without any added value stuff. It's really not up to TfL to be doing this, and at such a critical time for them, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of their other heritage activities fall by the wayside.

The heritage Routemaster routes were introduced because the withdrawal of Routemasters in everyday service was so controversial - presumably enough time has passed for that to no longer matter.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The heritage Routemaster routes were introduced because the withdrawal of Routemasters in everyday service was so controversial - presumably enough time has passed for that to no longer matter.

That, and the "Borismaster" genuinely has become the new "iconic" London bus (in a way Mercedes Citaro-Gs would never be), so you don't need the manky old one to compare it to.

(I am aware there are many problems with the "Borismasters" too, most notably the underlying vehicle, but you could have put that "bodykit" on anything, really)
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
With Peter Hendy and Leon Daniels (particularly the latter) long gone from TfL, there is no longer an advocate for the continuing running of the service. When the 9 (9H, if you prefer) Routemaster service was provided by First, they at least supervised it with some respect. The latter days of the route, under Tower Transit stewardship, was a free-for-all, with huge, inexplicable gaps in what had become a 20 minute headway and some Lewis Hamilton wannabees as drivers. Did Trafalgar Square to Kensington, Holland Road in 14 minutes one Saturday afternoon, when the bus finally left its stand after a 25 minute break!
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,518
Definitely no need for the 15H any more, surprised it lasted as long as it did. Anything 'special' or unusual should now be left to the private operators, not TfL.
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
1,666
They do, but I'm not sure a bus route that isn't itself particularly interesting (though admittedly does pass the Tower) is the way to do it. If TfL wanted it could probably run a mini tourist network, but why not just leave that to the tour bus companies? Open top is probably more popular than classic, anyway; people are more into seeing RMs than travelling on them, as to be honest the travelling experience on one is pretty grim, they are cramped, have small windows and are roasting hot in summer and freezing cold in winter.
One of the "challenges" facing heritage railways is the number of people who take photographs for free rather than purchasing a ticket to travel on the service. I suspect the same may apply with the Routemaster.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,180
Definitely no need for the 15H any more, surprised it lasted as long as it did. Anything 'special' or unusual should now be left to the private operators, not TfL.
As an enthusiast I was thankful for it and am sad to see it go, but it has gone well past its 'sell by' date and can hardly be justified now.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
That, and the "Borismaster" genuinely has become the new "iconic" London bus (in a way Mercedes Citaro-Gs would never be), so you don't need the manky old one to compare it to.

(I am aware there are many problems with the "Borismasters" too, most notably the underlying vehicle, but you could have put that "bodykit" on anything, really)
Indeed it was the Borismaster which effectively killed the 9H, as on the 9 they usually had the second member of staff and thus had the rear platform open, taking away much of the novelty of the RMs.

I used to enjoy the 9H, it was a really fast way of getting from High St Ken into the West End, especially as a lot of people I suspect genuinely didn't realise it was a service bus and thus would let it go past!
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,025
Location
West Wiltshire
The most recent Stagecoach fleet card I can find (6th February 2021) lists 7 RMs in hibernation, and 3 awaiting lease return. So clearly Stagecoach were unaware (although their operating contract had ended last Autumn) that they weren’t returning. Presumably the owner (TfL?) hasn’t bothered to collect the spare ones either.

The 10 buses are :
RM 324, 652, 871, 1933, 1941, 1968, 2050, 2060, 2071, 2089
 

WesternLancer

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2019
Messages
6,996
In today's paper
Transport for London has retired its iconic fleet of “hop on, hop off” Routemaster buses on the number 15 route, the capital’s last running heritage service.
Citing reasons including falling ridership across the central London network and environmental and accessibility limitations, TfL confirmed the classic front-engined double-deckers had been permanently withdrawn.

The 15H route ran between Tower Hill and Trafalgar Square and was operated by Stagecoach London. The 10-strong fleet were the last of London’s world-famous open-backed buses in operation, after the city’s other heritage route to be introduced in 2005, the 9H, was axed in 2014.
The 15H remained but was curtailed to a seasonal service in 2019 to cut costs, with 10 buses operating between 10am-6pm on summer weekends and bank holidays between March and September only.
But due to the Covid-19 pandemic, the heritage route did not operate at all in the 2020 season, saving TfL £825,243 in contract payments to Stagecoach, and will not be coming back.
TfL said the heritage buses were “not needed for the current and predicted customer demand on the corridor” and were neither at ULEZ standards nor step-free, meaning their “continued operation is no longer viable”.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Timmyd

Member
Joined
28 Jun 2014
Messages
174
I work in the City and used to hop on and off quite regularly between meetings, the open platform being handy given how awful traffic had become in London. It was generally pretty lightly used, especially in the mornings, but in the late afternoon/early evening, and at weekends, the loadings could be quite heavy and I'm sorry to see it go. Some of the comments above are spot on - there were some great conductors but some who were utterly obnoxious by the end, especially with passengers who not unreasonably expected to be able to use contactless and were unceremoniously thrown off.
 

Simon75

On Moderation
Joined
25 May 2016
Messages
881
So what will happen to the buses? Are they to be kept in storage?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,025
Location
West Wiltshire
Depends on whether Stagecoach can find any use for them elsewhere.
Stagecoach lease them (for nominal fee) from TfL

TfL won’t need them, so could sell or auction them off, hoping some rich enthusiast wants them. However they have had so many updates from new lighting and engines they are not that close to original condition anymore.
 

LUYMun

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2018
Messages
776
Location
Somewhere
TfL won’t need them, so could sell or auction them off, hoping some rich enthusiast wants them. However they have had so many updates from new lighting and engines they are not that close to original condition anymore.
Would be a lot of work to restore one back to originality. Good luck to anyone who'll have the time, money and effort to fix them up.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Would be a lot of work to restore one back to originality. Good luck to anyone who'll have the time, money and effort to fix them up.
They'd appeal to anyone wanting to operate a tourist service of some sort, I suppose, where most people wouldn't know enough about the lack of authenticity to be bothered.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
Stagecoach lease them (for nominal fee) from TfL

TfL won’t need them, so could sell or auction them off, hoping some rich enthusiast wants them. However they have had so many updates from new lighting and engines they are not that close to original condition anymore.
They're still Routemasters, so ideal for an operator who wants an old London bus, and isn't worried that it isn't in original condition. Party buses, weddings, corporate events etc

And with their modern Dart derived drivetrain, they'll be much more suitable for regular use
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,518
They're still Routemasters, so ideal for an operator who wants an old London bus, and isn't worried that it isn't in original condition. Party buses, weddings, corporate events etc

And with their modern Dart derived drivetrain, they'll be much more suitable for regular use
True. If somebody just wants something that looks like a genuine Routemaster then these will probably do. Most people won't realise the difference(s).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top