TfL chief Sir Peter Hendy: Southeastern trains into capital are 'sh*t'

[bicbasher]

The last time I had my Oyster checked by a LOROL RPI was on Friday afternoon just before 1pm.

 

[Taunton]

I am reminded of the Edinburgh Tram, who had penalty fare legislation put in place, and then put up signage at the ticket machines at stops saying if you want further information on fares to ask the conductor on board; said conductor, on every vehicle and checks every passenger's ticket, cannot issue tickets in the normal manner, only penalty charges. I think these latter are dressed up as "standard charges" or something but it's the same thing, a very substantial excess charge (which all goes to the operator).

It would be appropriate if penalty fares money beyond the normal fare did not go to the operator, but to the centre like the DfT, with the revenue inspectors just part of the costs of the business like other station and train staff are, ensuring that regular fares are paid. I think there would be a notable change of attitude. At the moment penalty fares seem to be treated as a revenue stream in their own right. I bet the income is budgeted for by the finance staff.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think the mistake that he is referring to is forgetting to touch in at an ungated station and getting hit for a maximum fare when you touch out. I do agree that if checked by an RPI on the Underground train in that circumstance then you will probably get a PF. I also don't ever recall seeing RPIs on an Underground train, they are usually at stations.

And with apologies to anyone who can guess what I'm about to say next, Southeastern have previous history of extremely heavy handed tactics with Oyster cards. It runs something like this:

1. Long standing commuter has had Oyster card with travelcard season since long before 2010.
2. In 2010 the concept of the OEP was introduced. Existing Oyster card holders were not contacted to explain the new requirement and virtually no posters were put up at stations.
3. The idea was to protect revenue at ungated NR stations in the outer zones where people could walk out without paying after using their travelcard for the first bit of the journey.
4. You had to put an OEP on your Oyster card before commencing a journey from within your zones to outside of those zones. This allowed a maximum fare to be charged on entry which would only be adjusted when you touch out.
5. While a messy solution, it did do what was intended, but huge swathes of regular commuters had no idea what they were expected to do.
6. Tube/DLR users were all aware that if they touched in at the start and out at the end they'd be charged the correct extension fare. The same also happened on National Rail, whether or not the OEP was set. All the OEP did was protect revenue if you forgot to touch out beyond your zones.
7. About a year after the introduction of OEPs TOCs abandoned their lenient stance and started penalty faring people who needed OEPs and didn't have them. Tough if you'd never been told before.
8. Southeastern took this a stage further. They set the barriers at their fully gated zone 1 stations to reject anyone with a travelcard without zone 1 and no OEP set. When the passenger received seek assistance they were directed to a waiting RPI to be hit with a PF.
9. But remember, what the passenger was trying to do would have resulted in the correct fare being charged. There was ABSOLUTELY NO ATTEMPT TO EVADE THE FARE.
10. After a few months of this TfL decided Southeastern had brought the OEP system into disrepute and they announced the scrapping of the OEP in May 2011. Of course they didn't publicly blame Southeastern, but they didn't have to.
11. And the bit which really made my blood boil. After introducing this new system with little to no publicity for existing Oyster Card holders, Every station displayed prominient posters telling people that they would no longer need to set OEPs after the date in May. This was the first that loads of commuters had ever heard of the OEP.

And of course the only reason that OEP was introduced was because SWT insisted on it as a condition of accepting Oyster PAYG (it's all in the TfL board papers from a few years ago). Personally I think TfL should have been more bullish at the time and launched PAYG on National Rail with the exception of SWT, which would have shown the latter up. SWT has a history of not being interested in transport integration in London and are one of TfL's trickiest customers, constantly stalling on Oyster/ITSO integration at Waterloo etc, so I can understand why he singled them out, even though I think he's being rather unprofessional with his sentiments.

 

[Aictos]

The last time I had my Oyster checked by a LOROL RPI was on Friday afternoon just before 1pm.

I've never had a ticket check by TfL staff before since I started travelling in and round London since 2006!

TOC staff are a different story but rather then have a go at the TOCs he ought get his own house in order as there's been times I've used TfL services and wanting to ask a staff member on the platforms a question only to find there are no staff visible.

Once he gets his own house in order then and only then should he worry about others!

 

[Mojo]

I've never had a ticket check by TfL staff before since I started travelling in and round London since 2006!

Revenue Protection on London Overground is carried out by the concessionaire, Lorol (London Overground Rail Operations Ltd), rather than TfL staff. Lorol have strict revenue protection targets to meet as part of their contract, so it is in their interest that they carry out these activities. It's the same situation on the DLR and Tramway. It is only on the buses and LU that revenue protection is carried out by in-house teams.

 

[bicbasher]

Bus checks are pretty regular. Last time I was checked on the tube was on the Met between Harrow on the Hill and Uxbridge, yet I can't remember the last central London check on a train.

 

[Antman]

Bus checks are pretty regular. Last time I was checked on the tube was on the Met between Harrow on the Hill and Uxbridge, yet I can't remember the last central London check on a train.

Are they? It must be at least 3 or 4 years since I had a check on a TfL bus and never on LU and I use both regularly.

 

[LeeLivery]

Are they? It must be at least 3 or 4 years since I had a check on a TfL bus and never on LU and I use both regularly.

Yes Bus "ticket inspectors" are always about

 

[Antman]

Yes Bus "ticket inspectors" are always about

Not on the buses I travel on

 

[Abpj17]

Ticket checks (other than driver/conductor) are rare on buses in zone 1.
Tube checks I can't recall ever seeing - checks are at gate lines.
DLR checks are pretty common - I assume because so many of the stations don't have gates and because there is a staff member on board who can do.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Not on the buses I travel on

I saw one on the 24 between Camden and Victoria a couple of weeks ago. I was surprised how lenient she was as those who had not paid were just asked to leave the bus. No details taken or penalties etc.

 

[jon0844]

those who had not paid were just asked to leave the bus. No details taken or penalties etc.

What's the frequency of the service? Seems a minor inconvenience if you just jump another one a few minutes later.

 

[nlogax]

And now an apology from Hendy..

"He has written to David Brown, chief executive of the Go-Ahead Group which runs Southeastern, and David Statham, managing director of Southeastern, to apologise to all employees for the remarks. He wrote: “I am quoted in Management Today being offensive about Southeastern trains and its staff. My comment is unjustified and excessive and I apologise.

“I know everyone there is doing their best to offer a good service in the context of the franchise you have and the infrastructure you operate on.

“If there is a context, the interview was several weeks ago during the worst of the issues at London Bridge. But that’s not an excuse. Passion is no excuse for insult. Sorry.”

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...muter-train-services-peter-hendy-southeastern

 

[jon0844]

Most people won't notice that, and still only remember the original story/comments - so it is all good at planting the seed to eventually take control of more routes into London.

Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, and I think it's inevitable in the long-term, but there are ways to go about it. Especially the fact that it won't be up to a TOC to just hand over the keys to TfL, as some people seem to think (namely a lot of AGA users on social media who think Abellio just called it a day and said it couldn't cope, before begging TfL to take over).

 

[Philip C]

And now an apology from Hendy..

"He has written to David Brown, chief executive of the Go-Ahead Group which runs Southeastern, and David Statham, managing director of Southeastern, to apologise to all employees for the remarks. He wrote: “I am quoted in Management Today being offensive about Southeastern trains and its staff. My comment is unjustified and excessive and I apologise.

“I know everyone there is doing their best to offer a good service in the context of the franchise you have and the infrastructure you operate on.

“If there is a context, the interview was several weeks ago during the worst of the issues at London Bridge. But that’s not an excuse. Passion is no excuse for insult. Sorry.”

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...muter-train-services-peter-hendy-southeastern

I expect that this will close the matter. But.......

I no longer travel through London Bridge on a regular basis but my impression, from a distance, is that the issues there were overwhelmingly related to Southern and not Southeastern. Am I wrong in this or could Mr Hendy not know that that was the case or is this just a little bit of wriggle/spin when he has gone too far in using opportunity to push another agenda?

 

[adrock1976]

And of course the only reason that OEP was introduced was because SWT insisted on it as a condition of accepting Oyster PAYG (it's all in the TfL board papers from a few years ago). Personally I think TfL should have been more bullish at the time and launched PAYG on National Rail with the exception of SWT, which would have shown the latter up. SWT has a history of not being interested in transport integration in London and are one of TfL's trickiest customers, constantly stalling on Oyster/ITSO integration at Waterloo etc, so I can understand why he singled them out, even though I think he's being rather unprofessional with his sentiments.

How I perceive things, this is a probable explanation as how stations beyond Hampton to Shepperton (a dead end branch line), and Ashford and Staines are not part of the Oyster PAYG/Travelcard area. Those aforementioned places were once part of historic Middlesex, which it got swallowed up in 1965 and became part of Greater London, and have the TW postcode (centered on Twickenham).

In peace

Adam

 

[matt_world2004]

Maybe there should be a single RPI body that checks for fare evasion across the whole network. The toc pays a subscription to use their services. With specialist training to work on certain franchises or lines.

 

[hassaanhc]

How I perceive things, this is a probable explanation as how stations beyond Hampton to Shepperton (a dead end branch line), and Ashford and Staines are not part of the Oyster PAYG/Travelcard area. Those aforementioned places were once part of historic Middlesex, which it got swallowed up in 1965 and became part of Greater London, and have the TW postcode (centered on Twickenham).

In peace

Adam

Staines is not in Greater London, nor is the majority of Ashford (certainly not where the station is). For the Shepperton branch, the boundary is between Hampton and Kempton Park.

 

[matt_world2004]

Staines is not in Greater London, nor is the majority of Ashford (certainly not where the station is). For the Shepperton branch, the boundary is between Hampton and Kempton Park.

I think staines should be in the travelcarrd zone it is served by London busses and has strong connections to London. Three rivers and Watford is not in Greater London either but still in the travel card zone.

 

[Antman]

What's the frequency of the service? Seems a minor inconvenience if you just jump another one a few minutes later.

The 24 is about every 6 minutes so no great hardship, that also seems to be the norm on the DLR as well with passengers without valid tickets or oysters just being asked to get off at the next stop and make the necessary arrangements.

In fact I'm pretty sure that the last time I encountered a ticket check on a TfL bus was in November 2009 on the day that the 38 was converted from bendybus back to double decker. I commented to the inspector how unusual it was and he said they were sending out a message that free travel on the 38 was a thing of the past.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Maybe there should be a single RPI body that checks for fare evasion across the whole network. The toc pays a subscription to use their services. With specialist training to work on certain franchises or lines.

Back in the day when we had a unified railway - this happened - and there is a glorious shot in NSE days of a massive core of both NSE and LUL ticket inspectors about to do a purge on what is now SWT.

Certainly we used to do joint operations on the North London Lines / Bakerloo - and very productive too they were !

 

[infobleep]

Because referenda are only held when someone else wants something (such as Scottish independence, voting reform or more powers for the Welsh Assembly). Hence also why one wasn't held when Westminster decided to give the Welsh Government a "contract extension" to 2016.

Although that's neither here nor there when Royal Mail sell postcode data which includes a field containing "former postal counties".

Don't get me start of Royal Mail and address data. The Postal Address File should never have been sold. Nor should Royal Mail in my opinion but especially the Postal Address File. It should have been made open source or handed over to the government / local government.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you will find that RPI shifts are carefully planned according to known elements of fare evasion and so on. Staff preference to work early turns is not generally an over-riding factor.

Do most people just dare evade when they feel like it because they don't care or do they try to plan it around times when they think they won't get caught?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes Bus "ticket inspectors" are always about

I've not seen one since I started using London bus in 2010 and more regularly in the last couple of years.

Perhaps they only target certain areas of London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bus checks are pretty regular. Last time I was checked on the tube was on the Met between Harrow on the Hill and Uxbridge, yet I can't remember the last central London check on a train.

I had one once about 10 years ago, never since.

 

[yorkie]

I've had bus inspections and London Overground inspections.

I've not noticed an LU inspection but then given they're mostly at gatelines and looking out for issues rather than inspecting everyone, that's not surprising.

 

[ComUtoR]

Do most people just dare evade when they feel like it because they don't care or do they try to plan it around times when they think they won't get caught?

An element of both.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think staines should be in the travelcarrd zone it is served by London busses and has strong connections to London. Three rivers and Watford is not in Greater London either but still in the travel card zone.

In fact Watford (National Rail) isn't in the travelcard zones. It has always been 'beyond zone 8' and special fares applied. Oyster PAYG is not limited to the zones.

 

[matt_world2004]

In fact Watford (National Rail) isn't in the travelcard zones. It has always been 'beyond zone 8' and special fares applied. Oyster PAYG is not limited to the zones.

The metropolitan line is.

 

[jon0844]

I've not noticed an LU inspection but then given they're mostly at gatelines and looking out for issues rather than inspecting everyone, that's not surprising.

They seem to stand outside of the gateline and look for people exiting that double up, or have a discounted ticket. I wondered at first how/why I was often getting stopped at both Farrington and King's Cross (for some months they were at one or the other quite frequently) and then realised that if you have a Gold card discounted ticket (or Oyster) they see the yellow strip on the reverse of the gates, effectively marking you for a check to see if you're the correct railcard/season ticket holder, or under 16.

A pretty effective way to do things actually. Clearly everyone else who gets through has no reason to be stopped.

 

[Via Bank]

If we can possibly drag this thread back on topic: while Hendy has now apologised for his remarks, one cannot deny that his choice of language reflects public opinion.

Of course, you and I know that the reasons for this are myriad and complex, but this does not change the crux of the matter: NR services in London are more expensive and routinely much less reliable, and, to quote the article above, some TOCs see apologies as "an optional extra."

So it is no wonder these passengers feel short-changed.

 

[Clip]

If we can possibly drag this thread back on topic: while Hendy has now apologised for his remarks, one cannot deny that his choice of language reflects public opinion.

Of course, you and I know that the reasons for this are myriad and complex, but this does not change the crux of the matter: NR services in London are more expensive and routinely much less reliable, and, to quote the article above, some TOCs see apologies as "an optional extra."

So it is no wonder these passengers feel short-changed.

And just how would this mornings shambles at Clapham junction be any better if they were all ran by TfL?

What about when the tube shuts down and chaos ensues - most of the time with the same information issues as NR services?

The grass isn't any greener. And does that mean for some services they will all be all stations? Thus slowing down the trip into town? That doesn't sound very good for the commuter. What about all stations out of the Bridge? No more fast ones to Norwood junction or East Croydon because the stations are now all TfLs? Doesn't sound too fair on the passenger that does it?