TFL price anomolies- tough luck.

[hungover]

Routes like FGW, Chiltern and C2C have charged TfL prices for a long time because of the lengths of shared route. The NR surcharge only applies to those TOCS which never went over to TfL pricing and always charged an add-on fare to continue a journey by tube/DLR.



The hokey-cokey works at any station which has gates. It won't work if you're using a travelcard or other means of free travel. It is actually the same station exit procedure, but has the benefit of breaking an open journey and starting a new one.

I am losing the will to live...

This week I have a 2-5 travel card as I am working in Barnes all week.

This morning I needed to pick a tool up from North Sheen. I took the unapproved route. At Richmond I thought it might be prudent to swipe out and then in (I did ask the SW staff for advice but they just kept nodding).

I travelled the one stop to North Sheen and swiped out. I have now been charged £2.30. Why?

I did ask the SA at North Sheen. His response was that I shouldn't have swiped out, claiming that only PAYG customers need swipe out. He looked at me as though I have 2 heads when I explained that I didn't want to be charged for an incomplete journey.

Edit, just noticed that you mention that the hokey-cokey doesn't work on travel cards. Why does using the technique make things worse though?

 

[Reason077]

I travelled the one stop to North Sheen and swiped out. I have now been charged £2.30. Why?

Check your journey history on the TfL website.

You were probably charged a Zone 1-2 fare, as the TfL system (mistakenly) thinks you travelled via Zone 1.

I did ask the SA at North Sheen. His response was that I shouldn't have swiped out, claiming that only PAYG customers need swipe out. He looked at me as though I have 2 heads when I explained that I didn't want to be charged for an incomplete journey.

Fair enough. You can't be charged for an incomplete journey with a Travelcard, unless you're out of zone.

Edit, just noticed that you mention that the hokey-cokey doesn't work on travel cards. Why does using the technique make things worse though?

Touching in and out at Richmond did not make any difference. The problem is the (slightly) unusual route you took getting to Richmond, which somehow confuses the Oyster system - perhaps due to the two OSIs.

Take a different route between Ruislip and Richmond (perhaps via Notting Hill Gate and Earl's Court, which won't be charged as a Zone 1 journey) and you'll be fine.

 

[hungover]

Check your journey history on the TfL website.

You were probably charged a Zone 1-2 fare, as the TfL system (mistakenly) thinks you travelled via Zone 1.

my history shows as

06.29: Ruislip Gardens- White city £0.00
06.39: Ruislip Gardens- Hammersmith C&H £0.00
07.06: Ruislip Gardens- Richmond £0.00
07.24: Ruislip Gardens- North sheen £2.30

(I assume those times are the exit, rather than entry times)

So it looks like the exit at Richmond was ineffectual, even though the gates at Richmond are not interchange gates.

I suspect that you are correct about the £2.30 charge being for zone 1 peak travel, coincidentally it is also the (Zone 4-3) fare from Richmond to North Sheen.

That said, my journey started before the peak period 6.10-ish), does a journey need to be completed before the peak threshold to qualify as being off peak?

Fair enough. You can't be charged for an incomplete journey with a Travelcard, unless you're out of zone.

?

I don't understand. How can the system know that you failed to swipe out in a zone covered by your travel card. I have had numerous incomplete journeys in the past (even at stations where I have to swipe in and out).

Touching in and out at Richmond did not make any difference. The problem is the (slightly) unusual route you took getting to Richmond, which somehow confuses the Oyster system - perhaps due to the two OSIs.

I have made the same journey to Richmond on numerous occasions (both PAYG and travel card). It has never been an issue bar the two occasions when I have travelled on to North Sheen.

TFL are happy with the route (ie Ruislip Gardens to Richmond). The single fare finder page doesn't stipulate a route. It only does so when one goes one stop further to North Sheen.

Take a different route between Ruislip and Richmond (perhaps via Notting Hill Gate and Earl's Court, which won't be charged as a Zone 1 journey) and you'll be fine.

I suspect that you are correct that I won't be overcharged, but that would imply that I am intentionally fare evading.

The route that I take is one that I am familiar with, I can doze and wake when needed. I also get to smoke whilst walking from one station to another. I believe that it is also faster.

 

[causton]

I don't understand. How can the system know that you failed to swipe out in a zone covered by your travel card. I have had numerous incomplete journeys in the past (even at stations where I have to swipe in and out).

Say you have a Zone 2-5 travelcard.

You go to Watford Junction and touch in there, with £2 credit.
The cost for an extension from Z5 to Watford Junction is £1.70.
Therefore you will have 30p left.

If you go back within Zones 2-5 whatever you do next should not matter. You can touch out, not touch out, touch out and then in, in and then out, that £1.70 charge will be all you have paid and you will still have 30p left. Unless there is some odd circumstance that I do not know about...

Edited to make it match your own Travelcard - the prices are the same!

 

[MikeWh]

Say you have a Zone 2-5 travelcard.

You go to Watford Junction and touch in there, with £2 credit.
The cost for an extension from Z5 to Watford Junction is £1.70.
Therefore you will have 30p left.

If you go back within Zones 2-5 whatever you do next should not matter. You can touch out, not touch out, touch out and then in, in and then out, that £1.70 charge will be all you have paid and you will still have 30p left. Unless there is some odd circumstance that I do not know about...

Edited to make it match your own Travelcard - the prices are the same!

If you touch in at Watford Junction with a zone 2-5 travelcard then you must touch out at a station within zones 2-5 within the maximum journey time to be charged the £1.70. If you don't the system has no way of knowing where you've gone so it'll charge a (reduced) maximum fare.

 

[londonbridge]

That said, my journey started before the peak period 6.10-ish), does a journey need to be completed before the peak threshold to qualify as being off peak?

No. Whether a journey is charged as peak or off-peak is determined by the touch-in time. If you touch in during off-peak and out during peak, the journey is charged as off-peak, and vice-versa.

 

[MikeWh]

my history shows as

06.29: Ruislip Gardens- White city £0.00
06.39: Ruislip Gardens- Hammersmith C&H £0.00
07.06: Ruislip Gardens- Richmond £0.00
07.24: Ruislip Gardens- North sheen £2.30

(I assume those times are the exit, rather than entry times)

So it looks like the exit at Richmond was ineffectual, even though the gates at Richmond are not interchange gates.

I suspect that you are correct about the £2.30 charge being for zone 1 peak travel, coincidentally it is also the (Zone 4-3) fare from Richmond to North Sheen.

Yes, those times are the exit times. Sadly Richmond is an interchange with itself because there is a disabled access route which involves leaving the paid area and re-entering. The charge was levied on the last leg because only that complete journey does not allow the route you took and the default route involves zone 1.

That said, my journey started before the peak period 6.10-ish), does a journey need to be completed before the peak threshold to qualify as being off peak?

No. As long as the first touch of a journey is before 0630 then the whole journey will be charged at off-peak rates.

I don't understand. How can the system know that you failed to swipe out in a zone covered by your travel card. I have had numerous incomplete journeys in the past (even at stations where I have to swipe in and out).

In this case it's not so much failing to touch out within your zones, rather that the journey you have made is defined as involving a zone not on your travelcard, so the system charges you for that zone.

I have made the same journey to Richmond on numerous occasions (both PAYG and travel card). It has never been an issue bar the two occasions when I have travelled on to North Sheen.

TFL are happy with the route (ie Ruislip Gardens to Richmond). The single fare finder page doesn't stipulate a route. It only does so when one goes one stop further to North Sheen.

Sadly the extra leg of the journey tips the balance on what is considered reasonable or not.

I suspect that you are correct that I won't be overcharged, but that would imply that I am intentionally fare evading.

No. If the route charged differs from the route taken then that is not your concern. You cannot be at fault when travelling on Oyster within the Oyster area as long as you have sufficient funds to pay for the fares that will be deducted.

The route that I take is one that I am familiar with, I can doze and wake when needed. I also get to smoke whilst walking from one station to another. I believe that it is also faster.

It's also a route that I think should be allowed and one that I will be asking about at TfL. My usual contact there is on holiday at the moment so there's no progress as yet. I should mention though that it's unlikely any change would be actioned before January at the earliest.

 

[paddington]

06.29: Ruislip Gardens- White city £0.00
06.39: Ruislip Gardens- Hammersmith C&H £0.00
07.06: Ruislip Gardens- Richmond £0.00
07.24: Ruislip Gardens- North sheen £2.30

This is completely bonkers, getting charged extra with a Z2-5 travelcard and having never left the zones, with each set of touch-ins and -outs having been a direct journey within the zones.

As noted the charge can be avoided by not touching out at North Sheen.

I suppose one could not touch in at North Sheen on the return. But if there were gates, how would it work? What would happen if after arriving at Hammersmith D&P, you touched out and in again but didn't re-enter the station, then went to the C&H station and touched in? Would that break the OSI?

 

[MikeWh]

This is completely bonkers, getting charged extra with a Z2-5 travelcard and having never left the zones, with each set of touch-ins and -outs having been a direct journey within the zones.

As noted the charge can be avoided by not touching out at North Sheen.

I suppose one could not touch in at North Sheen on the return. But if there were gates, how would it work? What would happen if after arriving at Hammersmith D&P, you touched out and in again but didn't re-enter the station, then went to the C&H station and touched in? Would that break the OSI?

It might do, or it might not work due to passback rules with travelcards. Probably the best way to break the OSI in this case would be to touch on a bus. Buses are free with any travelcard so there would be no charge. That could also be done at Richmond if there are any buses nearby.