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TfL Rail - confusing map

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Mojo

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That might be a result of the fact that 345s can't operate to Heathrow yet, and so they're stuck with the existing Heathrow connect setup in terms of stock and paths, which don't allow extensions to T5.
The existing Heathrow Connect service runs to/from Terminal 5, except for a handful of services in early morning and late evening which goes to/from T4.
 
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Domh245

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The existing Heathrow Connect service runs to/from Terminal 5, except for a handful of services in early morning and late evening which goes to/from T4.

I see, I hadn't realised it was a through operation, which makes it more of an odd decision.
 

Mojo

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I see, I hadn't realised it was a through operation, which makes it more of an odd decision.
I suppose one point of view is now at least all terminals have the option of a direct train to/from Paddington during the day, rather than T5 having all the trains and T4 having none.
 

matt_world2004

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I see, I hadn't realised it was a through operation, which makes it more of an odd decision.
Its probably because when crossrail was concieved terminal 5 didnt exist. My understanding there will still be trains to terminal 5 just it will involve a change at heathrow central. Also from december 2019 there will be a crossrail service to terminal 5.
 

RDWRER

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Its probably because when crossrail was concieved terminal 5 didnt exist. My understanding there will still be trains to terminal 5 just it will involve a change at heathrow central. Also from december 2019 there will be a crossrail service to terminal 5.

Indeed, a reversal of the current situation where Connect trains run to T5 and you change for T4. I guess they decided that on the 20th of May people will suddenly start to want a through service to T4 instead of T5... odd.
 

Mag_seven

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Why oh why oh why did they put Paddington zone 1 on the left and Heathrow zone 6 on the right of the line diagram on page 1?

Personally I don't see any issue with it at all - as probably will most members of the travelling public.
 

Requeststop

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The Map/Timetable would be very welcome if available at LHR terminals. Having recently arrived at LHR on a Sunday morning at T5 on the first flight of the day on BA from Hong Kong at 05:00 after a 26 hour journey from PNG, and wishing to get to my hotel at T4 on the free ride via T2&3, and finding no service, or personnel to assist, and then having to pay a fiver for the inter-terminal bus, I was a bit more than peed off. To have a map and timetable available to look at would be welcome, irrespective of the direction of the map.
 

matt_world2004

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The Map/Timetable would be very welcome if available at LHR terminals. Having recently arrived at LHR on a Sunday morning at T5 on the first flight of the day on BA from Hong Kong at 05:00 after a 26 hour journey from PNG, and wishing to get to my hotel at T4 on the free ride via T2&3, and finding no service, or personnel to assist, and then having to pay a fiver for the inter-terminal bus, I was a bit more than peed off. To have a map and timetable available to look at would be welcome, irrespective of the direction of the map.
The red buses between terminals are free too
 

JW16

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I dread to think how this new TfL route will be incorporated into the main tube map (and especially what will become of Paddington), once a famed work of art now a complete spaghetti mess.
 

wimbledonpete

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When the D stocks were introduced to the District line they had direction of travel maps in the cars which meant that on one side Upminster was on the left - they looked extremely weird. Don't think they lasted that long.
 

BluePenguin

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TFL are notorious for their confusing maps. I think this is another low on their list. Personally I prefer geographically accurate maps over ones that have straight lines and show useful interchange stations.

This map showing the line between Paddington and Heathrow is so confusing to read and makes my brain hurt. Looking at it upside down does help a bit, but still it is the principle.
 

berneyarms

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There is a typo in the timetable, in that SX westbound, the 0811 at Hayes & Harlington should read 0711.
This appears to have been fixed now.

The first train of the day out of Heathrow is 'Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays only'. Why do they have an aversion to days starting with T? I am sure there is a good reason somewhere!
This appears to have been changed back to Monday-Fridays.
 

RDWRER

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The Map/Timetable would be very welcome if available at LHR terminals. Having recently arrived at LHR on a Sunday morning at T5 on the first flight of the day on BA from Hong Kong at 05:00 after a 26 hour journey from PNG, and wishing to get to my hotel at T4 on the free ride via T2&3, and finding no service, or personnel to assist, and then having to pay a fiver for the inter-terminal bus, I was a bit more than peed off. To have a map and timetable available to look at would be welcome, irrespective of the direction of the map.

The station at T5 is atrociously sign posted. If I had a pound for every time I saw people struggling to find the trains - or conversely struggling to find departures after getting off a train...

It's no better when you actually get to the platforms as every sign points you towards HEX with nothing mentioning the much cheaper Connect.
 

Class 170101

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The first train of the day out of Heathrow is 'Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays only'. Why do they have an aversion to days starting with T? I am sure there is a good reason somewhere!

Something to do with NR maintenance access I would expect.
 

plcd1

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The timetable intervals to be the same as the present one. Which ironically makes the 30 minute service between Central London and Heathrow Airport, including at peak periods, the least frequent service on the whole of TfL's rail network.

Chesham is half hourly
Romford - Upminster is half hourly
Liverpool St - Cheshunt (via SS) is half hourly (Overground trains only)

Some of the above are never going to be more frequent than that due to line constraints / pathing of other trains (Cheshunt branch)

It remains to be seen how long the 345s are unable to run to T4 because of the signalling issues. There are several late Sunday starts booked in September which suggest to me that some form of extended Sat / Sun overnight possessions may be in place for testing purposes / service emulation. This may be enough to gather evidence of service performance / safety compliance to allow a sign off for the 345s. We shall see - the problems in the tunnel are somewhat involved (from what I've read) and don't look that easy to resolve as long as the old BR ATP kit remains in place.
 

matt_world2004

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Chesham is half hourly
Romford - Upminster is half hourly
Liverpool St - Cheshunt (via SS) is half hourly (Overground trains only)

Some of the above are never going to be more frequent than that due to line constraints / pathing of other trains (Cheshunt branch)

It remains to be seen how long the 345s are unable to run to T4 because of the signalling issues. There are several late Sunday starts booked in September which suggest to me that some form of extended Sat / Sun overnight possessions may be in place for testing purposes / service emulation. This may be enough to gather evidence of service performance / safety compliance to allow a sign off for the 345s. We shall see - the problems in the tunnel are somewhat involved (from what I've read) and don't look that easy to resolve as long as the old BR ATP kit remains in place.
Chesham is less than half hourly at some times of day.
 

plcd1

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Indeed, a reversal of the current situation where Connect trains run to T5 and you change for T4. I guess they decided that on the 20th of May people will suddenly start to want a through service to T4 instead of T5... odd.

I must be unable to read timetables then as Table 117 shows HEX serving T5 at all times with Connect as far as T23 and connecting shuttles for T4. A double check on the Heathrow Connect website confirms this arrangement.

If TfL Rail trains do reach T4 during the day then that will *restore* a through train service to T4 compared to the current operation. TfL are also running half hourly on Sundays into Heathrow which is double the current service level.
 

RDWRER

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I must be unable to read timetables then as Table 117 shows HEX serving T5 at all times with Connect as far as T23 and connecting shuttles for T4. A double check on the Heathrow Connect website confirms this arrangement.

If TfL Rail trains do reach T4 during the day then that will *restore* a through train service to T4 compared to the current operation. TfL are also running half hourly on Sundays into Heathrow which is double the current service level.

I don't follow, apologies.

The timetable posted by OP suggests that the current slow stopping through service to T5 will switch to T4 - meaning no more slow through service to T5 until December 2019. It's a minor issue for commuters really as it just adds 5/10 minutes on to a journey to T5, ho-hum.

I guess TfL thought T4 (9.5 million passengers p/a) was a better choice than T5 (32 million passengers p/a).
 

Mojo

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I must be unable to read timetables then as Table 117 shows HEX serving T5 at all times with Connect as far as T23 and connecting shuttles for T4. A double check on the Heathrow Connect website confirms this arrangement.

I’m not sure what you’re saying either. Heathrow Connect trains run through to Terminal 5 during the daytime, in customer service. See attached screenshot from National Rail Enquiries official app, or check Realtime Trains. For some reason the destination is shown as T123 on Apps etc. however trains do continue to T5 and are announced as such on trains. At the extremities of the day the service goes to T4 however.
 

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plcd1

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I don't follow, apologies.

The timetable posted by OP suggests that the current slow stopping through service to T5 will switch to T4 - meaning no more slow through service to T5 until December 2019. It's a minor issue for commuters really as it just adds 5/10 minutes on to a journey to T5, ho-hum.

I guess TfL thought T4 (9.5 million passengers p/a) was a better choice than T5 (32 million passengers p/a).

My understanding of the *current* pre TfL Rail situation is this (from the published timetables)

- 2 tph stopping Paddington - T23 (Heathrow Connect) [in reality these trains reach T5 - see comment below]
- 4 tph HEX Paddington - T5 (express)
- shuttle T23 to T4

Post TfL Rail the situation is
- 2 tph stopping Paddington - T4 (TfL Rail) (Should rise to 4 tph if signalling issues are resolved)
- 4 tph HEX Paddington - T5 (express)
- 2 tph T23 to T4

Having looked at Realtimetrains I see that Heathrow Connect trains do reach T5 despite all the public timetables denying this. What a bizarre situation. I can now understand your (and others) comments about T5 slow trains.

Post Dec 2019 the service should be

- 2 tph Abbey Wood - T4 (Crossrail)
- 2 tph Abbey Wood - T5 (Crossrail)
- 4 tph Paddington mainline - T5 (HEX)
Possible T23 - T4 shuttle (not sure about this)
There will also be a study about adding a further 2 tph on Crossrail into Terminal 5.

I don't understand your remark about TfL's "better choice". The Crossrail Act did not envisage Crossrail services to Terminal 5. The plan and scheme scope was always about serving T23 and T4. Serving Terminal 5 was something that had to be negotiated and we know how troublesome that became as HAL tried so hard to extract high track access charges from TfL. Thankfully the respective parties have seemingly reached an agreement that allows Crossrail to reach T5 (better for passengers, meets political aspirations and probably better for the airport) from Dec 2019.
 

RDWRER

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Having looked at Realtimetrains I see that Heathrow Connect trains do reach T5 despite all the public timetables denying this. What a bizarre situation. I can now understand your (and others) comments about T5 slow trains.

I don't understand your remark about TfL's "better choice". The Crossrail Act did not envisage Crossrail services to Terminal 5. The plan and scheme scope was always about serving T23 and T4. Serving Terminal 5 was something that had to be negotiated and we know how troublesome that became as HAL tried so hard to extract high track access charges from TfL. Thankfully the respective parties have seemingly reached an agreement that allows Crossrail to reach T5 (better for passengers, meets political aspirations and probably better for the airport) from Dec 2019.

Indeed the current situation with trains to T5 is very odd and not really published.

My comments about TfL were slightly tongue in cheek I suppose as you rightly point out that the Crossrail Act sorted that all out. In which case I direct my comments about T4/T5 away from TfL and to the Crossrail project/HAL. From December 2019 it will be brilliant I'm sure, but until then, well.
 

matt_world2004

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My understanding of the *current* pre TfL Rail situation is this (from the published timetables)

- 2 tph stopping Paddington - T23 (Heathrow Connect) [in reality these trains reach T5 - see comment below]
- 4 tph HEX Paddington - T5 (express)
- shuttle T23 to T4

Post TfL Rail the situation is
- 2 tph stopping Paddington - T4 (TfL Rail) (Should rise to 4 tph if signalling issues are resolved)
- 4 tph HEX Paddington - T5 (express)
- 2 tph T23 to T4

Having looked at Realtimetrains I see that Heathrow Connect trains do reach T5 despite all the public timetables denying this. What a bizarre situation. I can now understand your (and others) comments about T5 slow trains.

Post Dec 2019 the service should be

- 2 tph Abbey Wood - T4 (Crossrail)
- 2 tph Abbey Wood - T5 (Crossrail)
- 4 tph Paddington mainline - T5 (HEX)
Possible T23 - T4 shuttle (not sure about this)
There will also be a study about adding a further 2 tph on Crossrail into Terminal 5.

I don't understand your remark about TfL's "better choice". The Crossrail Act did not envisage Crossrail services to Terminal 5. The plan and scheme scope was always about serving T23 and T4. Serving Terminal 5 was something that had to be negotiated and we know how troublesome that became as HAL tried so hard to extract high track access charges from TfL. Thankfully the respective parties have seemingly reached an agreement that allows Crossrail to reach T5 (better for passengers, meets political aspirations and probably better for the airport) from Dec 2019.
For clarity when crossrail fully opens there will be six tph crossrail services to heathrow . 4 to terminal 4 and 2 to terminal 5.Terminal 5 will also be served by 4 tph heathrow express.
 

hassaanhc

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Until very recently even the station announcements would just say 'Heathrow Connect service to Heathrow Airport' if my mind serves correctly without reference to specific terminals.
Paddington still does that, while the other stations did it to Terminal 5. But I can't remember if that's changed now that the intermediate stations use the TfL Rail system instead of GWR's one.

As for the Heathrow stations used, in the previous timetable period (May to December 2017) they did switch the Heathrow Connect to Terminal 4 and publicised it back then. But in December it was quietly changed back to Terminal 5 :s
 

Lucan

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Why oh why oh why did they put Paddington zone 1 on the left and Heathrow zone 6 on the right of the line diagram on page 1?
Because a lot of people, including the designer of that map, don't have a clue about compass directions. I was taught map reading at school, but somehow I doubt it is taught anywhere these days (except in Army acadamies) . In my local "Yellow Pages" (or equivalents), and on their websites, businesses often show hand-drawn "how to find us" location maps which I find unrecognisable until I realise that North is to the lower left or something.
 

Joe Paxton

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Because a lot of people, including the designer of that map, don't have a clue about compass directions. I was taught map reading at school, but somehow I doubt it is taught anywhere these days (except in Army acadamies) . In my local "Yellow Pages" (or equivalents), and on their websites, businesses often show hand-drawn "how to find us" location maps which I find unrecognisable until I realise that North is to the lower left or something.

It's not a map, it's a line diagram.
 

Lucan

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It's not a map, it's a line diagram.
It is a map. Maps do not have to be like satellite views; the classic London Underground map is a map, even though its geometry is vastly different from that on (or under) the ground, because it illustrates the correct connectivity. The commonly published Mercator projection map of the World shows an image like nothing you could see from anywhere, including from space, but, likewise, is nevertheless a map.

In mathematics there is a general definition of mapping which goes something like "An operation that associates each element of a given set with one or more elements of a second set." https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mapping. In this case the actual railway line is the given set and the TfLdiagram is the second set.
 
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