TfL Rail Paddington to Reading December 2019

[Ethano92]

I believe most terminators will extend to Old Oak Common, which will have four platforms on the reliefs, and two reversing sidings beyond the station. The details are in one of the HS2 amendment packages.

Alright I'll have a look around. Seems like an obvious way to take some HS2 pressure off Euston with crossrail 2 seeming less and less likely. Thanks

 

[cle]

Excuse my ignorance but except for the peak extras from Gidea Park into LST high level, won't crossrail be completely separated from GA as in I thought the slows up to shenfield on the GEML were going to be dedicated to crossrail so if there's disruption, it wouldn't effect GA but I feel like I'm missing something.

Also is there a chance we'd see trains coming from the East terminating at Old Oak common once built as opposed to Paddington low level or will be crossrail platforms be shared with GWML stopping services so couldn't deal with all the extra trains?

Thanks in advance.

This was my understanding too. This shouldn't be a limitation, and they shouldn't have integrated the GEML if they couldn't use it fully. That said, it's the GWML which has the freight and other traffic. I'd think those peak extras could become Crossrail extras, or with the final length trains - might be covered - and free some slots out of Liverpool St.

I seem to recall some other stopping pattern infographics, there was one with a fast West Drayton pattern (after Ealing, no Hayes) which stuck out as notable. Hate how deliberately slow they have made the Heathrow trains, to preserve the Express demand - and also how Hanwell etc won't have service to Slough which is a big employment spot along the corridor.

 

[hwl]

Alright I'll have a look around. Seems like an obvious way to take some HS2 pressure off Euston with crossrail 2 seeming less and less likely. Thanks

The plan is to extend all the Paddington Terminators to OOC when it opens but that will need the Paddington throat rebuild and resignal first.

 

[hwl]

This was my understanding too. This shouldn't be a limitation, and they shouldn't have integrated the GEML if they couldn't use it fully. That said, it's the GWML which has the freight and other traffic. I'd think those peak extras could become Crossrail extras, or with the final length trains - might be covered - and free some slots out of Liverpool St.

I seem to recall some other stopping pattern infographics, there was one with a fast West Drayton pattern (after Ealing, no Hayes) which stuck out as notable. Hate how deliberately slow they have made the Heathrow trains, to preserve the Express demand - and also how Hanwell etc won't have service to Slough which is a big employment spot along the corridor.

The basic idea is that there is only on NR track running an 1 end of each service. e.g. GWML to Abbey Wood & Shenfield to Paddington
The 4tph Gidea Park - Liverpool Street will be 9car 345s, there isn't any room for more in the tunnels.

 

[hwl]

The CBTC signalling is supposed to be able to handle 30tph which is a 2 minute separation. So, in theory a train being 30 seconds late at peak times or 1 minute late at off peak should not cause any problem.
The close headway testing which is being done might mean the system should be able to handle closer separations.
I would expect that any later than 2 minutes, the trains will have to be re-ordered. In that case there may be knock on effect. It would be interesting to know what the plans are for handling longer delays.

The Headways won't be the theoretical 2m30s for 24tph though as Westbound you'll need the terminators to closely follow the service in front to enable the clear out to happen at Paddington without delaying the train behind (running at nearer 3m behind). OOC relieves the clearing out problems as you have 4 platforms...

 

[JonathanH]

The Headways won't be the theoretical 2m30s for 24tph though as Westbound you'll need the terminators to closely follow the service in front to enable the clear out to happen at Paddington without delaying the train behind (running at nearer 3m behind). OOC relieves the clearing out problems as you have 4 platforms...

Isn't the idea that they will just let people ride on to Westbourne Park reversing siding to avoid the need for a clear out?

Did Kennington ever reach a point where they didn't bother with the clear out?

 

[800002]

Isn't the idea that they will just let people ride on to Westbourne Park reversing siding to avoid the need for a clear out?

Did Kennington ever reach a point where they didn't bother with the clear out?

Surely it becomes a class 5 when it reaches Paddington, Terminates, uses turnback, and starts anew from paddington?
So you can't have passengers onboard.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely it becomes a class 5 when it reaches Paddington, Terminates, uses turnback, and starts anew from paddington?
So you can't have passengers onboard.

That’s true, but they definitely did publish something about ten years ago that they wouldn’t be hanging around, and if people were accidentally overcarried it would be safe to do so.

No idea where I’d start looking for evidence now though...

 

[hassaanhc]

and also how Hanwell etc won't have service to Slough which is a big employment spot along the corridor.

West Ealing and Hanwell already have only one direct train per weekday going to West Drayton and beyond: The 2R84 2351 London Paddington to Reading (which is one of very few services to genuinely call at all stations between Paddington and Reading). At other times you have to change at Hayes & Harlington.
Both stations lost their regular direct trains to/from West Drayton, Iver, Langley and Slough in 2005 when Heathrow Connect started and took the paths used by the Paddington to Slough stopping services.

Acton Main Line still has a few to/from Reading early morning and late evening as a legacy from the Greenford service finishing early, even though TfL Rail have now filled most of the gaps at those times with the Hayes & Harlington service that replaced them.

Looks like Hanwell is finally getting a Sunday service to.

Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line have started having a Sunday service since the May timetable started.

 

[JonathanH]

That’s true, but they definitely did publish something about ten years ago that they wouldn’t be hanging around, and if people were accidentally overcarried it would be safe to do so.

No idea where I’d start looking for evidence now though...

The timetable planning rules for Crossrail indicate the same dwell time for trains stopping normally at Paddington as those going to Westbourne Park.

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/ccos-tpr-2020-v1-1.pdf

The plan is that the trains run without the driver in the cab on the Paddington - Westbourne Park - Paddington section with the driver walking end to end during that time while the ATO drives the train.

I suspect that officially passengers shouldn't be overcarried to Westbourne Park but there isn't time to have an argument with someone if they stay on.

 

[800002]

That’s true, but they definitely did publish something about ten years ago that they wouldn’t be hanging around, and if people were accidentally overcarried it would be safe to do so.

No idea where I’d start looking for evidence now though...

It's certainly an intreiging thought.
Now you mention it, I recall reading about the planned / proposed 'Zorro Moves' (using the single crossovers) to either Reverse or run single line during engineering would be automatic operation, with the driver changing ends while the train is on the move.

I don't recall though if this extended to the turnbacks at paddington though.
**Yes, they can: 4.1.2. Of the TPR.

An automatic reversing facility is available to assist in the prompt reversal of trains terminating at Paddington (Elizabeth Line) station and to move trains between Abbey Wood station and Plumstead stabling sidings. This facility may also be used to operate over the crossovers at Fisher Street, Vallance Road and Custom House

And 4.2. ATO Operation Limits / 4.3. Auto Drive Operation.


EDIT: see the rather excellent post, above!

 

[Kite159]

West Ealing and Hanwell already have only one direct train per weekday going to West Drayton and beyond: The 2R84 2351 London Paddington to Reading (which is one of very few services to genuinely call at all stations between Paddington and Reading). At other times you have to change at Hayes & Harlington.
Both stations lost their regular direct trains to/from West Drayton, Iver, Langley and Slough in 2005 when Heathrow Connect started and took the paths used by the Paddington to Slough stopping services.

Acton Main Line still has a few to/from Reading early morning and late evening as a legacy from the Greenford service finishing early, even though TfL Rail have now filled most of the gaps at those times with the Hayes & Harlington service that replaced them.

Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line have started having a Sunday service since the May timetable started.

Only West Ealing & Acton Main Line, Hanwell hasn't got sunday services (the Heathrow services only call Ealing Broadway, Southhall & Hayes on Sundays)

 

[800002]

Only West Ealing & Acton Main Line, Hanwell hasn't got sunday services (the Heathrow services only call Ealing Broadway, Southhall & Hayes on Sundays)

Hanwell gets a sunday 2 tph each way in Dec 19.
0941 - 2041 (westbound)
1005 - 2105 (eastbound)

 

[bcarmicle]

The plan is that the trains run without the driver in the cab on the Paddington - Westbourne Park - Paddington section with the driver walking end to end during that time while the ATO drives the train.

Does this mean that the reversal is operated at ATO level 3 while the rest of the central section is at ATO level 2 (and thus presumably the first section of the National Rail network to be on ATO level 3)?

Also, is the reversal entirely in tunnel or does it include any open sections? (I can't seem to find a good map that would answer that)

ATO levels for reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation

 

[800002]

Does this mean that the reversal is operated at ATO level 3 while the rest of the central section is at ATO level 2 (and thus presumably the first section of the National Rail network to be on ATO level 3)?

Also, is the reversal entirely in tunnel or does it include any open sections? (I can't seem to find a good map that would answer that)

ATO levels for reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_operation

All the turnbacks at Paddington (westbourne park area) are westward of the Royal Oak Portal, thus not in tunnel.

I believe the NR / CR boundary is 1 mile 02 ch, from paddington High Level (just before Gantry 6, on GW103, approaching in the down direction. Gantry 6 being located 1 mile 12 chains from Paddington.

Therefore I don't believe there will be any ATO on NR (GW103) network.

Taken my info from TrackMaps Book 3, Issue 6 and a 2015 issue of the proposed signalling interface between NR control and CCOS (Crossrail Core Operating Section) controll.
NESA appears to differ slightly at this point in time. It has the Westbound line joining Line 5 at Gantry 5. Either way, the turnback signalling is under CCOS control and is ATO level 3.

 

[hassaanhc]

Only West Ealing & Acton Main Line, Hanwell hasn't got sunday services (the Heathrow services only call Ealing Broadway, Southhall & Hayes on Sundays)

Well spotted, thanks for the correction!

 

[swt_passenger]

Also, is the reversal entirely in tunnel or does it include any open sections? (I can't seem to find a good map that would answer that)

Google maps satellite view shows the Crossrail set up pretty well. Once you locate the portal you’ll see the running lines diverge either side of a highly visible diamond crossing which leads towards the turn backs.

 

[rd749249]

AR moves are prohibited on NR lines. They are all contained within the COS which includes the turnbacks at WBP, ABW p3 & 4, Plumstead reversing and all Zorro moves within the tunnels.

 

[Bikeman78]

Isn't the idea that they will just let people ride on to Westbourne Park reversing siding to avoid the need for a clear out?

Did Kennington ever reach a point where they didn't bother with the clear out?

The Kennington turning circle on the Northern line is available for passengers. I did it a few years ago.

 

[kevin_roche]

AR moves are prohibited on NR lines. They are all contained within the COS which includes the turnbacks at WBP, ABW p3 & 4, Plumstead reversing and all Zorro moves within the tunnels.

Auto reverse on the 345 is a feature of the Trainguard MT CBTC Signalling system and so is only possible where that signalling system is installed.

 

[rd749249]

Yes, but not permitted entirely in CBTC areas e.g. NR overlay at Stratford

 

[George180]

Emailed the crossrail website and they confirmed 6 trains in the peak on TFL Rail between Reading and Paddington starting in December

 

[700007]

Emailed the crossrail website and they confirmed 6 trains in the peak on TFL Rail between Reading and Paddington starting in December

This is sadly wrong, it is only 4 trains an hour between Paddington and Reading in the peaks with another 2 trains an hour provided by Great Western Railway.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is sadly wrong, it is only 4 trains an hour between Paddington and Reading in the peaks with another 2 trains an hour provided by Great Western Railway.

I’d agree, and also note that in all the many years of consultation and revision the Crossrail service at Reading has never been higher than a peak only 4 tph, with 2 tph off-peak, and this is exactly what is shown in open data sources such as realtimetrains for Dec 15th inwards.

However, Crossrail’s own website is IMHO very badly written and under “Reading” it describes the service pattern from Maidenhead before pointing out the lower frequencies between Reading and Maidenhead:

Elizabeth Line Services from Reading

Reading station is now step-free from platform to street.

When the full route opens, four Elizabeth line trains an hour (six an hour at peak times) will allow passengers to travel right through central London without having to change trains. Two Elizabeth line trains an hour (four an hour at peak times) will run between Maidenhead and Reading.

Fast services currently operated by Great Western Railway will be unaffected by the introduction of Elizabeth line services.

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/western-section/reading-station

The exact same wording also appears in the service pattern description for Maidenhead, so I think that might possibly explain the error?

 

[Ethano92]

This is sadly wrong, it is only 4 trains an hour between Paddington and Reading in the peaks with another 2 trains an hour provided by Great Western Railway.

Will those 2 GWR services be the Didcot Parkway stopper? And off peak will crossrail essentially replace the Reading stopper with the Didcot Parkway stopper still operating?

 

[swt_passenger]

Will those 2 GWR services be the Didcot Parkway stopper? And off peak will crossrail essentially replace the Reading stopper with the Didcot Parkway stopper still operating?

1. Yes stoppers Didcot to Reading then Twyford but they run fast after Maidenhead.
2. Yes.

If you check out this realtimetrains list for Reading you’ll see they are 1Pxx until the 0901 2P31 which is the first GW that is a normal stopper to Paddington:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/12/16/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

[Ethano92]

1. Yes stoppers Didcot to Reading then Twyford but they run fast after Maidenhead.
2. Yes.

If you check out this realtimetrains list for Reading you’ll see they are 1Pxx until the 0901 2P31 which is the first GW that is a normal stopper to Paddington:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...19/12/16/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Many thanks

 

[si404]

And off peak will crossrail essentially replace the Reading stopper with the Didcot Parkway stopper still operating?

Yes.

Not quite - the Didcot stopper basically becomes semi-fast east of Reading and the Readings stop more.

Currently Readings stop Ealing Bdwy, Southall (down only), Hayes & H, W Drayton, Slough, Burnham, Taplow, Maidenhead and Twyford; and Didcots stop Ealing Bdwy, Southall (up only), Hayes & H, W Drayton, Iver, Langley, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring and Cholsey

In December the Readings pick up the Southall (up), Iver and Langley stops to become all-stops west of Southall (skipping 3 stops east of there). The Didcots lose them, only stopping at major relief line stops east of Maidenhead (Ealing, Hayes, W Drayton* and Slough only - skipping 8 stops) and then stopping all stops

*which will be lost when through-services begin on the Elizabeth line, with Maidenhead services meaning 4tph off-peak and so no need for Didcot services to stop there.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not quite - the Didcot stopper basically becomes semi-fast east of Reading and the Readings stop more.

Currently Readings stop Ealing Bdwy, Southall (down only), Hayes & H, W Drayton, Slough, Burnham, Taplow, Maidenhead and Twyford; and Didcots stop Ealing Bdwy, Southall (up only), Hayes & H, W Drayton, Iver, Langley, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford, Reading, Tilehurst, Pangbourne, Goring and Cholsey

In December the Readings pick up the Southall (up), Iver and Langley stops to become all-stops west of Southall (skipping 3 stops east of there). The Didcots lose them, only stopping at major relief line stops east of Maidenhead (Ealing, Hayes, W Drayton* and Slough only - skipping 8 stops) and then stopping all stops

*which will be lost when through-services begin on the Elizabeth line, with Maidenhead services meaning 4tph off-peak and so no need for Didcot services to stop there.

I must admit I didn’t go to that level of detail. I sort of equated “stopping” with running on the reliefs, IYSWIM...

 

[si404]

I must admit I didn’t go to that level of detail. I sort of equated “stopping” with running on the reliefs, IYSWIM...

Fair enough.