TfL Rail service from heathrow nonnstopping after 4 minutes of delays

[matt_world2004]

Hi , can anyone explain the rationale behind the 29/8/2021 2107 TfL Rail from Heathrow terminal 5 non stopping every intermediate stop between Heathrow Central and Ealing Broadway after encountering 4 minutes of delays at Terminal 5.

It passed Hayes & Harlington a minute and a half late and I'm sure it passed Hanwell, west Ealing and Southall actually early . It arrived in Ealing Broadway before it was due to leave west Ealing.

 

[TFN]

Hi , can anyone explain the rationale behind the 29/8/2021 2107 TfL Rail from Heathrow terminal 5 non stopping every intermediate stop between Heathrow Central and Ealing Broadway after encountering 4 minutes of delays at Terminal 5.

It passed Hayes & Harlington a minute and a half late and I'm sure it passed Hanwell, west Ealing and Southall actually early . It arrived in Ealing Broadway before it was due to leave west Ealing.

I did notice this at Heathrow T2&3 last night and we were all confused. The reason was "due to a fault on this train which is now fixed". It only left T5 five mins late as I recall.

Utterly ridiculous from MTR imo. If trains are running late, at least stop at Hayes & Harlington and then continue fast to Paddington, to allow passengers to connect on another service.

 

[Horizon22]

Probably because TfL Rail control miscalculated how delayed it would be. Once they'd committed the change and informed the driver / signaller they probably thought (wrongly) it was best to stick with it. This is not new from them; they often make strange decisions, or no service disruption decisions at all. First sign of trouble and they seem paralysed with inaction.

I also see it was still running on the Relief (and early) so yes all in all a bit pointless.

 

[cactustwirly]

Hi , can anyone explain the rationale behind the 29/8/2021 2107 TfL Rail from Heathrow terminal 5 non stopping every intermediate stop between Heathrow Central and Ealing Broadway after encountering 4 minutes of delays at Terminal 5.

It passed Hayes & Harlington a minute and a half late and I'm sure it passed Hanwell, west Ealing and Southall actually early . It arrived in Ealing Broadway before it was due to leave west Ealing.

Because TfL Rail are incompetent...
The service seems to fall apart if there is any kind of problem. GWR operate on the same tracks and their service is more reliable

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Hi , can anyone explain the rationale behind the 29/8/2021 2107 TfL Rail from Heathrow terminal 5 non stopping every intermediate stop between Heathrow Central and Ealing Broadway after encountering 4 minutes of delays at Terminal 5.

It passed Hayes & Harlington a minute and a half late and I'm sure it passed Hanwell, west Ealing and Southall actually early . It arrived in Ealing Broadway before it was due to leave west Ealing.

Arrived 3E according to RTT - absolute joke. Is this how tight Crossrail will be once through running starts?

 

[Mojo]

I was going to ask whether there was a chance that there was some sort of fault with the DOO in cab monitors or antenna that receives the signal, meaning the train could only call at stations with dispatch staff, but see from RTT that it also
called at Acton (Main Line).

 

[JonathanH]

but see from RTT that it also
called at Acton (Main Line).

Did it? Both times are recorded as 2132 and it didn't wait for the scheduled departure time.

 

[Mojo]

Did it? Both times are recorded as 2132 and it didn't wait for the scheduled departure time.

I don’t know, but it wasn’t listed as being cancelled there like it was for every other stop.

 

[snookertam]

These decisions can end up being made when control staff are under pressure from management to minimise delays at all costs. There’s always someone with hindsight who will come along and criticise.

Used to frequently see similar in First ScotRail days between Glasgow Queen Street and Edinburgh when the 15 minute service operated, and also on the North Clyde routes.

 

[306024]

An old Controller friend used to say the best Controllers were those who had the knowledge when it was best to actually do nothing. For example skip stopping can be counter productive if a member if traincrew gets delayed watching their intended train sail straight through, and then cause another totally unrelated delay.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Probably because the delay was less than they thought it would. To readvise everyone would cause confusion, and potentially an operational incident, and telling everyone a new plan would ultimately cause more delay whilst communications were passed

 

[Snow1964]

Did it? Both times are recorded as 2132 and it didn't wait for the scheduled departure time.

That’s how I read it, departed 1 minute early from Ealing Broadway and 2 minutes early at Acton.

Very strange timekeeping, unless the decision to skip 4 stops included the weird decision to then run early. I wonder what the Controller was thinking to decide that.

Not a lot of alternative services, at 9pm on a Sunday either.

 

[Surreytraveller]

That’s how I read it, departed 1 minute early from Ealing Broadway and 2 minutes early at Acton.

Very strange timekeeping, unless the decision to skip 4 stops included the weird decision to then run early. I wonder what the Controller was thinking to decide that.

Not a lot of alternative services, at 9pm on a Sunday either.

Depends what the Controller's instructions are. Targets are more important than real life

 

[matt_world2004]

I suspect it stopped at Ealing Broadway but not at Acton looking at the times.. they regularly depart 1 minute early from.some stations.

 

[Horizon22]

These decisions can end up being made when control staff are under pressure from management to minimise delays at all costs. There’s always someone with hindsight who will come along and criticise.

Used to frequently see similar in First ScotRail days between Glasgow Queen Street and Edinburgh when the 15 minute service operated, and also on the North Clyde routes.

Not really. This was a poor decision and didn’t need any “hindsight”. This is entirely within the gift of the TfL Rail West controller who probably significantly overestimated the problem.

What should have happened is wait a bit longer until the train departs T5, calculate the lateness before it gets to Hayes and then amend the stops (if required). But this sort of logical, reasonable thinking is often completely amiss. TfL Rail drives the Western route mad!

That’s how I read it, departed 1 minute early from Ealing Broadway and 2 minutes early at Acton.

Very strange timekeeping, unless the decision to skip 4 stops included the weird decision to then run early. I wonder what the Controller was thinking to decide that.

Not a lot of alternative services, at 9pm on a Sunday either.

Regarding Acton ML, there’s every chance there would be a handful or zero passengers getting on/off so could have been a very quick (30 secs or possibly less) dispatch. Certainly been very quick when I’ve been on before.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Not really. This was a poor decision and didn’t need any “hindsight”. This is entirely within the gift of the TfL Rail West controller who probably significantly overestimated the problem.

What should have happened is wait a bit longer until the train departs T5, calculate the lateness before it gets to Hayes and then amend the stops (if required). But this sort of logical, reasonable thinking is often completely amiss. TfL Rail drives the Western route mad!



Regarding Acton ML, there’s every chance there would be a handful or zero passengers getting on/off so could have been a very quick (30 secs or possibly less) dispatch. Certainly been very quick when I’ve been on before.

It also depends upon what else the Controller is dealing with at the same time. Controllers are often dealing with more than one thing at a time, and a quick decision often needs to be made to make a problem go away so they can concentrate on something that will have a much bigger impact

 

[100andthirty]

It also depends upon what else the Controller is dealing with at the same time. Controllers are often dealing with more than one thing at a time, and a quick decision often needs to be made to make a problem go away so they can concentrate on something that will have a much bigger impact

It also depends on the rules the controller was working to. It would be simple to tell MTR Crossrail that non-stopping booked stations is not acceptable. I have always thought that this activity only benefitted the TOC chasing performance stats that generally don't benefit the customers. As far as I'm aware such activity is unknown on the Underground.

 

[matt_world2004]

It also depends on the rules the controller was working to. It would be simple to tell MTR Crossrail that non-stopping booked stations is not acceptable. I have always thought that this activity only benefitted the TOC chasing performance stats that generally don't benefit the customers. As far as I'm aware such activity is unknown on the Underground.

The fines are huge for non stopping booked stations london reconnections puts the fine at £1240 for non stopping Tottenham Court Road. While I imagine the fines for the west stations are smaller they could still be quite high for a low frequency statopn like Acton Main line. Where non stopping leads to no service for an hour.

Fines for non stopping are based on loss of capacity

 

[pdeaves]

What should have happened is wait a bit longer until the train departs T5, calculate the lateness before it gets to Hayes and then amend the stops (if required).

I would wager that, if that happened, people would complain about late (or not early enough) advice that a stop would be missed, especially if already on board. It's a no-win situation.

 

[Horizon22]

I would wager that, if that happened, people would complain about late (or not early enough) advice that a stop would be missed, especially if already on board. It's a no-win situation.

That is true. But at least you can changes at Hayes with another service not far behind. These decisions come with experience / competence and my interaction with TfL Rail has been they are lacking in both.

Personally I think the service would have been absolutely carnage had it been running in the Central section already. ETCS failures were common just 6-9 months back - and a reset takes approximately 7 minutes - and would have caused huge backlogs and delays to which TfL Rail would fail to respond to in a timely manner. They struggle to manage disruption of a limited (and quite simple) service, so unless there’s some drastic improvements in their Control quality I don’t hold up much hope for 2022 and beyond.

 

[Starmill]

If you were travelling you may be able to claim a service delay refund:

London Overground and Elizabeth line delays

Information on if and how you can get a refund if you were delayed on a London Overground or Elizabeth line journey.

tfl.gov.uk

 

[Horizon22]

If you were travelling you may be able to claim a service delay refund:

London Overground and Elizabeth line delays

Information on if and how you can get a refund if you were delayed on a London Overground or Elizabeth line journey.

tfl.gov.uk

Althogh TfL Rail have a ridiculously cheap notion of delay repay despite running on NR infrastructure and other TOCs will do so without question.

If there’s an aggressive passenger on a service at say Hayes, delaying the train by 20 minutes. GWR would pay out but TfL wouldn’t because of the 30-min threshold. And if it was 30 minutes TfL still wouldn’t because it was “outside our control”. Same with weather related delays. Not sure how they can get away with that.

 

[Starmill]

Althogh TfL Rail have a ridiculously cheap notion of delay repay despite running on NR infrastructure and other TOCs will do so without question.

If there’s an aggressive passenger on a service at say Hayes, delaying the train by 20 minutes. GWR would pay out but TfL wouldn’t because of the 30-min threshold. And if it was 30 minutes TfL still wouldn’t because it was “outside our control”. Same with weather related delays. Not sure how they can get away with that.

They can get away with it because that's what your consumer contract says unfortunately. You can still claim under the arrangements in the NRCoT instead if necessary, including making a claim for an unacceptable service under consumer law.

The only advantage to the TfL Rail scheme is that they'd pay 100% while GWR would only pay 50% for less than 60 minutes.

 

[matt_world2004]

If you were travelling you may be able to claim a service delay refund:

London Overground and Elizabeth line delays

Information on if and how you can get a refund if you were delayed on a London Overground or Elizabeth line journey.

tfl.gov.uk

We abandoned the journey as other transport issues had already delayed us by 20 mins and any further delays would cause us to miss the show

 

[snookertam]

Not really. This was a poor decision and didn’t need any “hindsight”. This is entirely within the gift of the TfL Rail West controller who probably significantly overestimated the problem.

What should have happened is wait a bit longer until the train departs T5, calculate the lateness before it gets to Hayes and then amend the stops (if required). But this sort of logical, reasonable thinking is often completely amiss. TfL Rail drives the Western route mad!

That assumes that the controller knew how it would pan out when they made the decision, and that it would be easy to contact the traincrew en route. They’ve likely decided it was better safe than sorry to avoid getting scrutinised for reactionary delays after the event.

Ideally they’d do all those things you suggested, but real life and it’s consequences sometimes gets in the way. Controllers can get things wrong quite often but there’s very often mitigating circumstances. I’d challenge others to sit in the chair and give it a go.

 

[Horizon22]

That assumes that the controller knew how it would pan out when they made the decision, and that it would be easy to contact the traincrew en route. They’ve likely decided it was better safe than sorry to avoid getting scrutinised for reactionary delays after the event.

Ideally they’d do all those things you suggested, but real life and it’s consequences sometimes gets in the way. Controllers can get things wrong quite often but there’s very often mitigating circumstances. I’d challenge others to sit in the chair and give it a go.

Sure, but I'm talking from a position where I have been there. Trust me when I say that TfL Rail constantly make poor (or no) decisions.

 

[Snow1964]

It does appear to have been a specific decision, of the 7 intermediate stations, just call at first, sixth, seventh, and skip 2-5.

So wasn’t even a try and get back on time by 5th station by skipping stations 1-4 decision. So wasn’t a try and maximise on time running decision.

 

[bramling]

It also depends on the rules the controller was working to. It would be simple to tell MTR Crossrail that non-stopping booked stations is not acceptable. I have always thought that this activity only benefitted the TOC chasing performance stats that generally don't benefit the customers. As far as I'm aware such activity is unknown on the Underground.

It doesn’t happen on LU, though there are variations - for example Met Line trains can be amended to run “fast” on the sections where this is possible, and it’s not uncommon for Nothern Line trains to go via CX instead of Bank to make up time.

The general thing with control should always be to do the minimum possible to allow things to recover naturally. That doesn’t mean blindly get every train to its destination on time, as most interventions will cause more inconvenience to passengers than a few minutes late running.

It’s rather sad that the performance regime seems to be centred upon penalty payments. That implies they don’t trust their management and control staff to act in the way which is best for the passenger.

 

[Starmill]

I’d challenge others to sit in the chair and give it a go.

Random untrained individuals? I don't think that would serve much purpose really, even as an academic exercise.

We abandoned the journey as other transport issues had already delayed us by 20 mins and any further delays would cause us to miss the show

That is a shame. However assuming you were using Pay as you Go you can still, if you wish to, check that you didn't pay for the train journey, and write to customer services to complain about having to abandon your journey.

 

[infobleep]

Probably because the delay was less than they thought it would. To readvise everyone would cause confusion, and potentially an operational incident, and telling everyone a new plan would ultimately cause more delay whilst communications were passed

How much delay and confusion would be caused by initially tell them of the changes? The driver might be busy dealing with fixing the fault at this point too.

I've been on trains from Guildford that could have stopped at Hinchley Wood or even stations earlier but didn't. Perhaps they have set groups of stations skipped duing disruption to make it easier.