TfL Rail to Reading - no Oyster so no Railcards?

[kieron]

I'm guessing that one issue with Oyster is what do about the charge for incomplete journeys? At the moment an incomplete journey is about £8 (I think) but this significantly undercuts the fare to Reading meaning that it'd be cheaper to not touch out!

That hits contactless almost as much as it does Oyster. You don't have to have credit available to touch in, but you do have to pay for incomplete journeys in the same way.

While I think Crossrail fares will be more in line with the £28.60 "not via Reading" Twyford-London fare than the £47.80 "+any permitted" Twyford-Shenfield one, it could still push up the incomplete journey charge. If they allow contactless on fast Reading-London trains, that could really push up the minimum journey charge.

 

[hkstudent]

That hits contactless almost as much as it does Oyster. You don't have to have credit available to touch in, but you do have to pay for incomplete journeys in the same way.

While I think Crossrail fares will be more in line with the £28.60 "not via Reading" Twyford-London fare than the £47.80 "+any permitted" Twyford-Shenfield one, it could still push up the incomplete journey charge. If they allow contactless on fast Reading-London trains, that could really push up the minimum journey charge.

Well, it's time to have an express premium surcharge on those fast trains just like the Dutch and Japanese do.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

So you want to impose the relatively inflexible fare structure devised for short point to point trips into Central London on the entire country? No thanks. Yes, it would be simple (or would it?) but actually there are fundamental flaws with TfL's model once you extend it outwards - fare capping is all designed around travel into Central London, no break of journey, peak fares in the afternoon unless you are travelling into Zone 1. These things are all OK when the fare range is £2-£5. They aren't OK as the peak / off-peak differentials increase in nominal terms and you are talking about fares in the £15-£20 range.

Er... no....I'm not saying 'impose TfL fares on the rest of the country' but am saying both TfL and NR need to sit down together and reach some compromises to create a new, simpler system. As you say, fare capping makes little sense beyond Zone 6. The word simple means exactly that and is not code for 'TfL': their system is actually very complicated. MikeWH's website is ample testimony to just how complicated it has gotten and how little information about it eg OSI durations, is ever publicised.

 

[Surreytraveller]

It doesn't necessarily extend to the first major town outside Greater London. Sometimes the GLA boundary is on a rural road and bus services go across the border and turn around or head back into the GLA area at the first practical opportunity.

In fact, where TfL take over National Rail services, then they're effectively operating under contract to the DfT just as any other operator is, so will have to agree with the DfT what they do with tickets just as any other operator would

 

[matt_world2004]

In fact, where TfL take over National Rail services, then they're effectively operating under contract to the DfT just as any other operator is, so will have to agree with the DfT what they do with tickets just as any other operator would

This is incorrect. The services they operate are devolved to the GLA who then hand their franchising process to tfl.

 

[Surreytraveller]

This is incorrect. The services they operate are devolved to the GLA who then hand their franchising process to tfl.

Really? So which organisation is protecting the users outside the GLA area, then?

 

[si404]

fare capping makes little sense beyond Zone 6.

Those of us in zones 7-9 beg to differ!

 

[matt_world2004]

Really? So which organisation is protecting the users outside the GLA area, then?

Tfl have representative from the local authorities they serve on steering groups that can raise objections to any planned changes but cannot block them. I believe their power was strengthened after the devolution of southeastern failed. But its basically the same as rail services devolved to the scottish and welsh governments.

DfT sometimes put conditions on preventing cliff edge fares but these are usually conditions for devoloution and are not usually modified after it has taken place.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Tfl have representative from the local authorities they serve on steering groups that can raise objections to any planned changes but cannot block them. I believe their power was strengthened after the devolution of southeastern failed. But its basically the same as rail services devolved to the scottish and welsh governments.

DfT sometimes put conditions on preventing cliff edge fares but these are usually conditions for devoloution and are not usually modified after it has taken place.

There must be conditions regarding minimum services too? After all, there would be nothing stopping DfT (subject to to capacity) introducing new services anyway

 

[matt_world2004]

There must be conditions regarding minimum services too? After all, there would be nothing stopping DfT (subject to to capacity) introducing new services anyway

I dont think there are. There maybe something in the crossrail act on this but I believe the only contractual obligations to provide minimum service provision is with heathrow airport limited abd canary wharf group.

There are also conditions relating to dft funded access schemes but they are subject to specific funding conditions and not as a basis for the devoloution of the service

 

[JonathanH]

Those of us in zones 7-9 beg to differ!

How many journeys can you make wholly within zones 7-9 before you hit a daily cap? How many journeys can you make wholly within zones 1 and 2 before you hit a daily cap? That is why daily capping makes less sense as you go outside London.

 

[PeterC]

How many journeys can you make wholly within zones 7-9 before you hit a daily cap? How many journeys can you make wholly within zones 1 and 2 before you hit a daily cap? That is why daily capping makes less sense as you go outside London.

As somebody who lives in zone 9 and is a regular Oyster user I am afraid that the mods would delete my post if I said what I thought of that.

 

[JonathanH]

As somebody who lives in zone 9 and is a regular Oyster user I am afraid that the mods would delete my post if I said what I thought of that.

Sorry, maybe it doesn't come across properly. The point I am trying, possibly badly, to make is that the only daily cap available assumes you travel into Central London and it seems quite unreasonable that you can spend all day travelling in Zone 1-2 for £7 whereas if you took a number of journeys wholly within Zones 7-9 the cap only kicks in at the level that assumes you have gone into Central London.

 

[si404]

How many journeys can you make wholly within zones 7-9 before you hit a daily cap?

Well when you straw man like that then you are right: "fare capping makes little sense beyond Zone 6."

Daily caps are useful for those living in zones 7-9. Such people are, unlike your assumption, able to travel into zones 1-6! Your idea that caps for those zones make "little sense" is an odd one. The issue here is not the outermost zone, but the innermost zone travelled in - due to the issue that all caps from a zone are the same as the Zone 1, but non-Z1 fares are a lot less so it's hard to reach the cap.

One can pretty easily cap from zone 9. OK, it takes a 4th journey to trigger it (assuming the first two are Z1-9 and the latter two don't go outside zone 2), vs a 3rd for a Z1-2 cap (and I'm not denying that this cap is more useful - visiting 2 different places near to home in a day is going to be more likely than visiting 3 different places 20+ miles away from home in a day), but it's not that ridiculous to do something like that. I've certainly done it a few times and would find it more nonsensical that I should instead buy a travelcard for some days because it would be cheaper than Oyster PAYG (I know that this is a current issue in Oyster zones beyond Z9, and for Epsom and Cuffley within Zone 9).

Oh, and I'm assuming Amersham or Chesham with £4.10 off-peak fares to/from Z1. From Brentwood, the two 1-9 singles add up to £11.40 (and £11.20 if you are doing Epsom or Cuffley), meaning that just one £2.40 journey within zone 1 would take you over the £12.90 cap - just two places in London, with a tube journey between, would take you to the cap - easily useful! OK, at peak times is harder unless you get two peak 1-9 fares (Z1-9 fares is 170% of the off-peak price at peak times for LU-scale, and 143% for Brentwood - explaining why the peak cap is 141% of the price of the off-peak).

 

[higthomas]

How many journeys can you make wholly within zones 7-9 before you hit a daily cap? How many journeys can you make wholly within zones 1 and 2 before you hit a daily cap? That is why daily capping makes less sense as you go outside London.

Remember though that this annoying fact isn't only true of zones 7-9. That is equally true of zones 2-6. The general TFL not having non zone 1 caps is a universal annoyance.

 

[si404]

Remember though that this annoying fact isn't only true of zones 7-9. That is equally true of zones 2-6. The general TFL not having non zone 1 caps is a universal annoyance.

Absolutely.

Sorry, maybe it doesn't come across properly. The point I am trying, possibly badly, to make is that the only daily cap available assumes you travel into Central London and it seems quite unreasonable that you can spend all day travelling in Zone 1-2 for £7 whereas if you took a number of journeys wholly within Zones 7-9 the cap only kicks in at the level that assumes you have gone into Central London.

Well here you have people from Z2 doing what you think is unfair for Z7-9 people to have to do: travelling into Central London.

Let's look at Z2 on it's own: £1.70 peak fare, £1.50 off-peak fare, £7 cap. That's 5 journeys to trigger whatever time of day. Pointless unless going to zone 1.

Off peak, any journey within zones 2-6 would be £1.50 (and the most expensive peak journey: Z2-6 is only £2.80). Caps are £8.20 for Z3, £10.10 for Z4, £12 for Z5 and £12.80 for Z6. It's all just useless unless going to zone 1 - and then they would still mostly need two Z1-2 journeys to reach it unless two peak fares from/to the outer zone to/from Zone 1.

Let's look at commute in, work, go somewhere else in Z1 for leisure in the evening, go home. A common thing. The worst is Z9, Z8 next, then Z6, Z7 and Z5 all on the next tier (another journey in Z1 is all that's needed), with Z1, Z1-2 and Z1-3 needing just three journeys to cap.

Z1 - a peak journey in = £2.40, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £2.40. Total = £7.20 , cap = £7.00, needed to cap = -£0.20
Z2 - a peak journey in = £2.90, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £2.40. Total = £7.70, cap = £7.00, needed to cap = -£0.70
Z3 - a peak journey in = £3.30, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £2.80. Total = £8.50, cap = £8.20, needed to cap = -£0.30
Z4 - a peak journey in = £3.90, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £2.80. Total = £9.10, cap = £10.10, needed to cap = £1.00
Z5 - a peak journey in = £4.70, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £3.10. Total = £10.20, cap = £12.00, needed to cap = £1.80
Z6 - a peak journey in = £5.10, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £3.10. Total = £10.60, cap = £12.80, needed to cap = £2.20
Z7 - a peak journey in = £5.60 , a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £4.00. Total = £12.00, cap = £14.00, needed to cap = £2.00
Z8 - a peak journey in = £6.90 , a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £4.00. Total = £13.30, cap = £16.50, needed to cap = £3.50
Z9 - a peak journey in = £7.00 , a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £4.10. Total = £13.50, cap = £18.30, needed to cap = £4.80

and the same for off-peak. Zone 9 gets within a Z1 single fare of the cap, but Z7 and Z8 don't quite get there. Things get worse for outer London: Zone 3 needs another journey now to cap, Zone 4's fourth journey needs to include Z1 now, Z5 is a long way off and Z6 even worse (2 return trips to Z1 wouldn't be enough)!

Z1 - an off-peak journey in = £2.40, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £2.40. Total = £7.20 , cap = £7.00, needed to cap = -£0.20
Z2 - an off-peak journey in = £2.40, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £2.40. Total = £7.70, cap = £7.00, needed to cap = -£0.20
Z3 - an off-peak journey in = £2.80, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £2.80. Total = £8.00, cap = £8.20, needed to cap = £0.20
Z4 - an off-peak journey in = £2.80, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £2.80. Total = £8.00, cap = £10.10, needed to cap = £2.10
Z5 - an off-peak journey in = £3.10, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £3.10. Total = £8.60, cap = £12.00, needed to cap = £3.40
Z6 - an off-peak journey in = £3.10, a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £3.10. Total = £8.60, cap = £12.80, needed to cap = £4.20
Z7 - an off-peak journey in = £4.00 , a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £4.00. Total = £10.40, cap = £12.90, needed to cap = £2.50
Z8 - an off-peak journey in = £4.00 , a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £4.00. Total = £10.40, cap = £12.90, needed to cap = £2.50
Z9 - an off-peak journey in = £4.10 , a Z1 journey = £2.40, an off-peak journey out = £4.10. Total = £10.60, cap = £12.90, needed to cap = £2.30

All this is just working with the TfL-LU fare scale. Using the TfL-Ang, NR-1, NR-1T, NR-2 or NR2-T fare scales would make it more likely to cap as singles are more expensive.

 

[MikeWh]

Of course a lot of this could be solved by re-introducing the zone 2-6 and zone 2-9 daily caps. Not going to happen under Sadiq Kahn, but after next May ...

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Dorking has a TfL bus for example. The 465. Surbtion has buses arriving that aren't even part of TfL.

I think it's entirely unreasonable that there are buses within Greater London that have different fares and don't accept Oyster. Which cross-border buses ended up in this regime and which are still TfL is simply an accident of history. The TfL routes that poke out into the countryside should also take part in any affordable, understandable, easy-to-use fares system that the counties would have - except they don't have them, of course.

The 81 from Slough...

... route was inherited from TfL's predecessors who did run a few routes well into the home counties.

More than a few - the LT country bus area was *enormous*. I wonder if travel just outside London would be easier if the split into red and green hadn't happened, with only one of them feeling the upheaval of deregulation and declining subsidy. I doubt that we'd go across Surrey for £1.50, but surely the co-ordination would be much better.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I think it's entirely unreasonable that there are buses within Greater London that have different fares and don't accept Oyster. Which cross-border buses ended up in this regime and which are still TfL is simply an accident of history. The TfL routes that poke out into the countryside should also take part in any affordable, understandable, easy-to-use fares system that the counties would have - except they don't have them, of course.

The 81 from Slough...


More than a few - the LT country bus area was *enormous*. I wonder if travel just outside London would be easier if the split into red and green hadn't happened, with only one of them feeling the upheaval of deregulation and declining subsidy. I doubt that we'd go across Surrey for £1.50, but surely the co-ordination would be much better.

There was no split between red and green which happened - they were all private companies which got taken over by London Transport. The red bus area long preceded the Greater London area, which was only created in 1965. It was only after 1970 when the country area was passed to the National Bus Company that some sort of cut backs happened to keep LT routes inside the LT area, and only after about 2004 since the the the invention of the Oystercard has non-acceptance of TfL tickets been a problem for non-TfL buses. Prior to that private operators were paid to accept TfL tickets on routes inside Greater London

 

[matt_world2004]

I wonder if it would be possible to use the unused zone 15 to create a shadow oyster only zone that charges the equivilent of tbe west drayton to reading fare for journeys that are wholly within the iver to Reading zone and charge an origin station to Reading fare for journeys outside this area.
An equivlent to a max fare for using the oyster card in the contactless zone.

The customer could get a refund for any overpayment by contacting customer services.

Personally I would think its morally wrong for a custoner to get a penalty fare for traveling using an oyster card on sonething branded in a confusingly similar way to a tube line.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

There was no split between red and green which happened

The split I'm talking about is country area buses into NBC with central area staying with LT. Of course, as you say, this arrangement had only lasted about 40 years between the nationalisations of LT and the NBC member companies.

 

[si404]

I think it's entirely unreasonable that there are buses within Greater London that have different fares and don't accept Oyster.

Ooh, £1.50 flat fares on the 105 to Uxbridge or Hemel: I might actually use the bus around here as then they won't be overly expensive for those without concession fares.

Would be a bit awkward between Wycombe and Beaconsfield - the 101 and 102 would have to have Oyster and £1.50 flat fares due to serving Uxbridge, but the 103 (Wycombe-Watford) and 104 (Wycombe-Slough) wouldn't - so that's half the 4 hourly buses between the town towns on one fare and half on the other (making the whole rehash as 'Chiltern Hundreds', timetabled for an even 4bph between them as pointless), which would be unreasonable. And so they'd have to have the same fare structure...

And add in hopper-fares and that's Slough-Gerrards Cross (change)-Amersham-Hemel for £1.50 (rather than £6.50 for a day pass on Carousel in those zones) without entering Greater London, or even travelling on buses that enter Greater London!

I'd imagine what Carousel would do in such a scenario is to terminate all the Uxbridge-bound 10x routes at Denham, and run a connecting service from Denham to Uxbridge to avoid going bankrupt!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Of course a lot of this could be solved by re-introducing the zone 2-6 and zone 2-9 daily caps. Not going to happen under Sadiq Kahn, but after next May ...

I expect he will run for re-election in 2020, if so I imagine that his manifesto's fares policy will not be quite so stark. (I voted for him, but like many others I considered the fares freeze promise to be unwise.)

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Anyone want to respond to the challenge on 1st Generation Oyster cards set out earlier of paying holders enhanced deposits back and then converting them to 2nd generation (or contactless!). Then all this stuff about the limited number of Oyster zones can be tackled head on! After all, the whole country switched from using Town Gas to Natural Gas in just under two years in the mid-1960s....

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
More than a few - the LT country bus area was *enormous*.
...

Indeed - for those who aren't aware, the London Passenger Transport Area (created alongside the LPTB in 1933) was indeed expansive, and covered a much larger area than Greater London (which itself was only created in 1965). When London Transport was transferred to the responsibility the Greater London Council in 1970, that's its core area of operations essentially shrank down to that of Greater London.

 

[mrmartin]

how many 1st gen cards are there left in circulation?

 

[Hadders]

how many 1st gen cards are there left in circulation?

I've got one! Seriously I'm sure a date could be set to switch them off. It'd need a mass publicity campaign along with direct emails to registered account holders still with 1st gen cards, but I doubt it'd be impossible.

 

[Joe Paxton]

how many 1st gen cards are there left in circulation?

Oodles, I'd imagine. Many may not be in regular use but stuffed in a drawer somewhere, but people would be miffed to dig them out and then find they don't work.

 

[Hadders]

Oodles, I'd imagine. Many may not be in regular use but stuffed in a drawer somewhere, but people would be miffed to dig them out and then find they don't work.

You just say that any Oyster PAYG card that hasn't been used for 2 years needs to be revalidated. That's an opportunity to replace them and deals with those stuffed in a drawer somewhere.

After a certain date don't allow travelcard seasons to be loaded onto 1st generation cards. That'll weed out all the registered ones.

Stop allowing railcard discounts to be loaded onto 1st generation cards. That'll force a few more out of circulation.

 

[MikeWh]

I expect he will run for re-election in 2020, if so I imagine that his manifesto's fares policy will not be quite so stark. (I voted for him, but like many others I considered the fares freeze promise to be unwise.)

I expect he'll run again, but I wouldn't put money on him getting back in.