TfL Railcard Strategy with Contactless Cards

[MikeWh]

So I went back to the staff member who said that it takes 48 hours from purchase to register (I don't understand that?).

Not quite. You need to make a journey and then register the next day, by which time the journey history will have updated and you can answer a question about it. I made a bus journey on mine and was asked the route number. If it's a rail journey you'll likely need both stations, and possibly any interchanges. I don't think you'll need exact times, though I'd keep a note of them anyway, especially if you make more than one journey.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I didn't see much point in starting a new one.

I didn't actually realise that you couldn't load railcards onto contactless; I asked someone at the station to do it with my Gold Card last week (I swapped my usual season ticket for a cheap one to retain the benefits, but now I need to pay for London travel individually for the first time in years, so I'm a bit rusty on this!).

They told me to phone TFL. So I phoned TFL, and they said it was not possible and I'd have to get an Oyster card. So this morning on my now-weekly visit to London I purchased an Oystercard, and they said I needed to register it. So I registered it on the site on my phone there and then, but this rejected me as I hadn't used it yet. So I went back to the staff member who said that it takes 48 hours from purchase to register (I don't understand that?). Thus after wasting so much time going through all of this, I'm still nowhere near getting a discount loaded onto my fares in London.

Does anybody know if TFL are going to make this any more user-friendly anytime soon? Or am I missing a trick somewhere?

I have never had an issue with putting a railcard onto Oyster. Weirdly registering the Oyster card has never come up, I've just asked a member of staff and they've sorted it. I've done this at tube stations (Clapham North), Overground stations (Watford High Street), and even a NR station within the zones (Upminster). In the latter case the process was almost instantaneous, for the other two it just took a couple of minutes.

I do hope it will be possible to use railcards with contactless soon though - this would be particularly useful for me because I would rather like to try using contactless from Reading at some point.

 

[MikeWh]

Weirdly registering the Oyster card has never come up

It won't if the Oyster card presented has already been registered.

I do hope it will be possible to use railcards with contactless soon though - this would be particularly useful for me because I would rather like to try using contactless from Reading at some point.

I think railcards with contactless is probably not feasible. What is likely to happen eventually is a dumb-Oyster card working off the back office, but which could still hold discount entitlement so that revenue staff could ask for the accompanying railcard.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I do hope it will be possible to use railcards with contactless soon though - this would be particularly useful for me because I would rather like to try using contactless from Reading at some point.

If you're making a single journey off-peak, note that contactless from Reading is already cheaper than paper tickets, even without railcard discount. E.g. Reading to West Drayton: railcard-discounted off-peak day single £8.45, contactless full-price single £6.40, almost a 25% saving over the railcard-discounted fare!

 

[Bob M]

I don't understand why a revenue inspector would need to check the railcard. It would be applied by the back office computer if registered and not if not.

 

[Hadders]

I don't understand why a revenue inspector would need to check the railcard. It would be applied by the back office computer if registered and not if not.

Because a railcard is not transferable but there's nothing to stop a contactless card being used by another person.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because a railcard is not transferable but there's nothing to stop a contactless card being used by another person.

It's exactly the same as Oyster. If you've (theoretically) registered it with a Railcard, it is no longer transferrable for that purpose.

 

[Hadders]

It's exactly the same as Oyster. If you've (theoretically) registered it with a Railcard, it is no longer transferrable for that purpose.

Indeed but an RPI can see that an Oyster card has a railcard added when they inspect it and ask to it. A railcard flag that is visible to an RPI cannot be added to a contactless card and therein lies the problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed but an RPI can see that an Oyster card has a railcard added when they inspect it and ask to it. A railcard flag that is visible to an RPI cannot be added to a contactless card and therein lies the problem.

As things stand it can't, but I don't see any reason why the new system couldn't implement that. It'd simply use the card number to run a query on the back-end.

Or you could do it another way. When inspected, you are asked if a Railcard is attached to the card. If you say there isn't, and the inspection flag establishes that there was, then you're hit with a penalty to the card and the card is blocked from having a Railcard attached for a period of time.

 

[JonathanH]

Or you could do it another way. When inspected, you are asked if a Railcard is attached to the card. If you say there isn't, and the inspection flag establishes that there was, then you're hit with a penalty to the card and the card is blocked from having a Railcard attached for a period of time.

That isn't really how revenue inspections work in London now. It doesn't really involve a verbal element - the person checking the cards walks along with their card reader, the travelling public hold out their cards - the card and card reader meet briefly, the inspector looks at the reader and moves on. A revenue inspector is hardly going to ask every single travelled whether they have a railcard attached as most won't.

If the railcard thing is ever going to happen for contactless it will be as part of an extension of Contactless arising from the PAYG consultation outcome. I don't see TfL pushing it at all - I'm not sure it would be worth their while. I suspect that some people with railcards still use Contactless rather than Oyster and pay more for their journeys than they have to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH I would consider the idea of all inspectors being online and therefore able to see a Railcard flag on the central database as being the most likely way it will go. Tube stations already have wifi, on-train inspections on the underground sections very rare (I've had one precisely once ever and it was years ago) and obviously on buses you've got a signal anyway.

Oyster was designed to deal with things being offline - that is just no longer the case in a city like London.

 

[Hadders]

I doubt we're going to get to a place where inspection devices can be reliably online anytime soon to give real time info from the back office. You'd need reliable Wi-Fi throughout the whole of the Underground for starters - where are we with that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt we're going to get to a place where inspection devices can be reliably online anytime soon to give real time info from the back office. You'd need reliable Wi-Fi throughout the whole of the Underground for starters - where are we with that?

How often do inspections occur on LUL other than at the barriers? As I said I have experienced this once ever.

 

[PeterC]

That isn't really how revenue inspections work in London now. It doesn't really involve a verbal element - the person checking the cards walks along with their card reader, the travelling public hold out their cards - the card and card reader meet briefly, the inspector looks at the reader and moves on. A revenue inspector is hardly going to ask every single travelled whether they have a railcard attached as most won't.

If the railcard thing is ever going to happen for contactless it will be as part of an extension of Contactless arising from the PAYG consultation outcome. I don't see TfL pushing it at all - I'm not sure it would be worth their while. I suspect that some people with railcards still use Contactless rather than Oyster and pay more for their journeys than they have to.

To be precise most people hold out closed card wallets. The there is no visual inspection at all.

 

[Belperpete]

That isn't really how revenue inspections work in London now. It doesn't really involve a verbal element - the person checking the cards walks along with their card reader, the travelling public hold out their cards - the card and card reader meet briefly, the inspector looks at the reader and moves on. A revenue inspector is hardly going to ask every single travelled whether they have a railcard attached as most won't.

If the railcard thing is ever going to happen for contactless it will be as part of an extension of Contactless arising from the PAYG consultation outcome. I don't see TfL pushing it at all - I'm not sure it would be worth their while. I suspect that some people with railcards still use Contactless rather than Oyster and pay more for their journeys than they have to.

And for those that have Oystercard with railcard discount, rarely are they asked to show the railcard. Probably only if the inspector thinks the discount doesn't fit the passenger.

 

[CyrusWuff]

And for those that have Oystercard with railcard discount, rarely are they asked to show the railcard. Probably only if the inspector thinks the discount doesn't fit the passenger.

It's worth noting that, regardless of the Railcard actually held, the discount is recorded as "NR Railcard" (except for Disabled Persons Railcards, which have no morning peak restriction) along with the expiry date, so the only way for an RPI to determine which Railcard it is would be to ask to see it.

 

[Hadders]

My last ticket inspection on LU happened on a weekday morning on the Piccadilly Line between Holborn and Leicester Square. I was also asked to show my Gold Card.

In my experience a ticket inspection on LU, although far less frequent that on National Rail, is far more thorough.

 

[hkstudent]

If you're making a single journey off-peak, note that contactless from Reading is already cheaper than paper tickets, even without railcard discount. E.g. Reading to West Drayton: railcard-discounted off-peak day single £8.45, contactless full-price single £6.40, almost a 25% saving over the railcard-discounted fare!

That's because Off-Peak Single is 99% the cost of an Off-Peak Return, where Contactless is taking half of the Off-Peak Return fare.
Contactless / Oystercard helps to make single journeys cheaper.

If you make a Reading - West Drayton return, case would be much different.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[infobleep]

TBH I would consider the idea of all inspectors being online and therefore able to see a Railcard flag on the central database as being the most likely way it will go. Tube stations already have wifi, on-train inspections on the underground sections very rare (I've had one precisely once ever and it was years ago) and obviously on buses you've got a signal anyway.

Oyster was designed to deal with things being offline - that is just no longer the case in a city like London.

Not around Raynes Park you haven't. Well not on O2. I don't know which network TfL revenue inspectors use. Parts of Surbtion are black spots too. This is outside so it won't be better inside a bus

 

[mattdickinson]

With the amount of data storage on small devices now possible, it should be possible to keep a full database of railcards linked to contactless cards on each inspectors hand held device.

 

[Hadders]

With the amount of data storage on small devices now possible, it should be possible to keep a full database of railcards linked to contactless cards on each inspectors hand held device.

So if I add a railcard discount to a contactless card how quickly will the revenue inspection devices be updated? If it's not instantaneous then it could cause issues.

 

[mattdickinson]

So if I add a railcard discount to a contactless card how quickly will the revenue inspection devices be updated? If it's not instantaneous then it could cause issues.

The Fast Universal Load procedure for Oyster is marketed as taking 30 minutes, but is usually much quicker.

 

[Paul Kelly]

So if I add a railcard discount to a contactless card how quickly will the revenue inspection devices be updated? If it's not instantaneous then it could cause issues

What issues? If the card's record hasn't been updated to note that the inspector needs to ask you for a railcard, wouldn't he/she simply let you pass unchallenged?

I do like MikeWh's idea about railcard discounts only ever being available on a "dumb" Oyster though; I can see that being both workable AND understandable, from a customer proposition point of view (i.e.contactless is only ever for full price "public" fares).

 

[Hadders]

What issues? If the card's record hasn't been updated to note that the inspector needs to ask you for a railcard, wouldn't he/she simply let you pass unchallenged?

I do like MikeWh's idea about railcard discounts only ever being available on a "dumb" Oyster though; I can see that being both workable AND understandable, from a customer proposition point of view (i.e.contactless is only ever for full price "public" fares).

Thinking about it, you're right! There would be no need for inspection devices to be updated immediately because if a railcard discount had just been added to the contactless card and the details hadn't been updated on the inspection device the inspector wouldn't know to ask for the railcard.

 

[Cdd89]

With the amount of data storage on small devices now possible, it should be possible to keep a full database of railcards linked to contactless cards on each inspectors hand held device.

According to this FOI: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...nd Railcard discount.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

In 2018, there were 110,279 Oyster cards that had a discount set that were not also an Annual Season.

Assuming 64 bytes of storage per card to store an encrypted card number and expiry date, the entire database would come to just 7MB. Far less than I’d have intuitively guessed!

However, the more intractable issue not mentioned above is that a small number of card issuers give the same PAN (16 digit card number) for partner cards issued against the same account. This caught out TfL early on during implementation and I recall reading an FOI (or maybe TRU) where they said they were assured by the industry that this didn’t happen and acted on that basis, other providers like Curve have also come unstuck due to this. I suspect this is what’s killing any possible hope of implementation.

 

[gray1404]

So no plans to be able to get a railcard discounted fare in a contactlees only area where oyster isn't accepted?

 

[higthomas]

So no plans to be able to get a railcard discounted fare in a contactlees only area where oyster isn't accepted?

Paper tickets?

 

[Wolfie]

Paper tickets?

Often dearer (or no cheaper) than Oyster/contactless fare.

 

[gray1404]

The ideal would be that either
Oyster is offered where ever Contactlees can be used - thus enabling railcard discounted fares
Or
A Contactlees card can have a railcard discount applied to it on the Tfl system.

 

[Cdd89]

Oyster PAYG followed by a paper ticket to bridge the missing stations often works out the cheapest way when I’ve done this in the past.

In point of fact, an Oyster PAYG discounted Maximum Fare followed by a paper extension is often only a few pence more than the above, negating the need to get out of the train - but I don’t think it’s ever permissible to fail to tap out on PAYG, even if no fare is avoided. (I’m certain it’s against the Oyster T&Cs, not sure whether it would be an offence that could be prosecuted?)