TfL to bid for Southeastern and Anglia franchises?

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AlterEgo

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http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/tfl-seeks-control-of-anglia-southeastern-rail-franchises/201221325


Transport for London is seeking control of at least 2 of London’s rail franchises, London Assembly members have been told.
Isabel Dedring, vice chair of TfL and deputy mayor for transport, said they would be bidding later this year to take over the Anglia & Southeastern franchises.

Both franchises will be awarded by the Department for Transport and TfL is hoping to beat commercial train operators in order to bring the London Overground experience to the routes.
Set up in 2007 and controlled by TfL, London Overground frequently tops the UK’s rail performance league tables and offers integrated Oyster fares.

A major investment programme has seen the network benefit from new trains and refurbished stations and platforms.

Labour’s Val Shawcross, deputy chair of the Assembly’s transport committee, said TfL enjoyed “cross party support” for the bids.

Discuss.
 
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Wath Yard

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Will TfL really be interested in running trains from Norwich - Sheringham? Or do they want to carve the franchises up and run the London bits? Anglia without the London bits would be a pretty small franchise and require a lot of subsidy, and wouldn't be easily merged with another franchise to make it worthwhile.
 

Nym

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Or it could just be a case of TfL taking over the Shenfeild Metro and similar services that stay pretty much within TfL boundies... Like they have with the Watford DC Lines.
 

AlterEgo

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Or it could just be a case of TfL taking over the Shenfeild Metro and similar services that stay pretty much within TfL boundies... Like they have with the Watford DC Lines.
I would imagine that is the case. I can't see them running intercity services up to Norwich.

I'm not entirely sure what any bid would look like - interesting story though.
 

Eagle

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Or it could just be a case of TfL taking over the Shenfeild Metro and similar services that stay pretty much within TfL boundies...
Except that's going to happen eventually anyway, because of Crossrail.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Boris Johnson today made a bid to take over every rail service in London in a move described as the biggest shake-up since privatisation.
Wasn't that originally an idea of Ken's?
 
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Schnellzug

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Boris Johnson today made a bid to take over every rail service in London in a move described as the biggest shake-up since privatisation.

The Mayor wants to control all suburban railways and introduce a one-ticket system across Greater London.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/mayor/boris-bid-to-run-every-rail-service-in-london-7315517.html
That idea would make sense within the boundaries of London (although surely things like Travelcards and I expect that Oyster thing already provide for that, don't they?), but mayors and the London-centric community always tend to forget that nearly all the suburban systems extend outside the boundaries of the great Metropolis as well, and are integrated into the larger network. It can work with London overGround, because that's pretty much self-contained, but if it causes a breakup of integration with the wider network that wouldn't seem to be a positive step.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Neither of these franchises is up for rebid this year.
GA expires July 2014 and SE March 2014.
Pre-qualification would maybe start this time next year (if the DfT does not extend them meantime).

I don't see how TfL are qualified to bid for a normal franchise (LO is not a franchise), any more than Directly Operated Railways are.
Public bodies are not invited to bid.

I can see TfL lobbying DfT to break up GA and SE into London and non-London bits, with them taking an LO-type concession for the London metro bits (Enfield, Chingford, Dartford, Hayes, say).
They will also probably control Crossrail when it starts.

I agree that the non-London remnants might be harder to franchise as a result, so there is no guarantee that the DfT will play ball.
I could possibly see a single GA+SE outer-suburban franchise making sense, matching Thameslink+Southern.

If TfL are so interested in taking on London rail services, you would expect them to start with Essex Thameside, but they are not shortlisted.
In any case, why would, say, Norfolk, want Boris or Ken interfering with their rail service?
 

Eagle

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The problem TfL have is that unlike other PTEs all the suburban metro services aren't run by the same operator (like Northern or LM or Scotrail).

SWT is perhaps the easiest to split off a suburban franchise from (consisting of all Windsor line services and all mainline services that don't go beyond Woking or Guildford). Although Southern and Southeastern both make a clear distinction between "metro" and "mainline".
 

WatcherZero

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The problem is how you seperate the suburban services for ticketing or control from long distance services using the same rails. Governments new rail policy does seem to be franchise consolidation and minimising the number of operators on the same lines though.
 

transmanche

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I don't see how TfL are qualified to bid for a normal franchise (LO is not a franchise), any more than Directly Operated Railways are. Public bodies are not invited to bid.
Indeed. Section 202 of the Greater London Authority Act 1999 specifically states that TfL cannot be a rail franchisee.

So obviously the report must be using "layman's language", meaning that TfL want more control over the franchise (a la LOROL) and to extend the 'London Overground' brand rather than to operate franchises itself.
 

Eagle

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The problem is how you seperate the suburban services for ticketing or control from long distance services using the same rails. Governments new rail policy does seem to be franchise consolidation and minimising the number of operators on the same lines though.
Quick knockup of my idea (you'll notice that I've included the NDL in the outer SW franchise; and the Ascot to Guildford line into the outer, with the peak-only services between Waterloo and Camberley in the inner). Other than the inner part of the mainline, there's very little interaction between the two groups.
 

Ivo

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So Reading is in, but Alton and Basingstoke - and the peak services between Camberley and Aldershot (I don't think you can terminate at Camberley) - aren't? I'm not sure I understand that. I agree that if the suburban routes are split then the Reading route would be a bit of an outlier however.
 

Eagle

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So Reading is in, but Alton and Basingstoke - and the peak services between Camberley and Aldershot (I don't think you can terminate at Camberley) - aren't? I'm not sure I understand that. I agree that if the suburban routes are split then the Reading route would be a bit of an outlier however.
I was going for the split with the least overlap. In fact, if I did this split I'd be brutal and make outer SW services only allowed to call at Clapham Junction after Woking, and even then as set down only.

Also, as my map shows, the peak services to Aldershot via Ascot would be included.

SWT consider Alton/Basingstoke terminators to be mainline, not suburban, due to their length.
 

transmanche

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I was going for the split with the least overlap. In fact, if I did this split I'd be brutal and make outer SW services only allowed to call at Clapham Junction after Woking, and even then as set down only.
I'd go for a simpler split. If it's a 455 and red, then it's Metro. If it's blue or white, then it's not. :D
 

Stats

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The Mayor's vision, as set out earlier this year, is for inner-surburban services to be devolved to TfL. For Southeastern this would include services to Sevenoaks, Hayes and Dartford and for Greater Anglia services to Hertford East, Chingford and Enfield Town. A Bromley South to Victoria service would also be introduced. All services devolved to TfL would be rebranded London Overground and operate at a "turn-up-and-go" frequency. As far as I can tell they will still be operated and included in their existing franchises.
 

HSTEd

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Could always fold the rump components of South Eastern and Anglia into the super-Thameslink franchise.
 

Eagle

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Could always fold the rump components of South Eastern and Anglia into the super-Thameslink franchise.
In both cases the "rump" is as big as, if not bigger than, the London bits. Given that the SC/TL franchise is already going to be the largest in the country, I don't think adding two other large areas is going to be that sensible.
 

aformeruser

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Neither of these franchises is up for rebid this year.
GA expires July 2014 and SE March 2014.
Pre-qualification would maybe start this time next year (if the DfT does not extend them meantime).
I thought pre-qualification was 18 months before, which is why everyone was saying the Northern franchise has been extended to April 2014 when officially it was ending in September 2013.

The problem TfL have is that unlike other PTEs all the suburban metro services aren't run by the same operator (like Northern or LM or Scotrail).
I'm struggling to understand what you're getting at here. There's a lot of commuter lines in the North with only a half-hourly peak-time frequency so they don't really come under a 'suburban metro' tag.

Then if you look at frequent commuter services out of Liverpool there's Merseyrail plus Northern's Liverpool-Wigan service.

Or if you look at frequent commuter services out of Leeds then TPE really comes under that tag with a Huddersfield services every 15 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wasn't that originally an idea of Ken's?
Yes it was.

(My first answer of just 'yes' was apparently too short!)
There was another thread on this last year:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=55409
 

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With the recent (March 2012) 'Reforming our Railways' Government command paper giving support for ''a more localised approach to decision-making on the railways'' in certain cases, pending the outcome of the consultation it would perhaps not be surprising to see TfL have more involvement of the railways in London, whether that be operational or merely strategic.

In my eyes, London has always been divided by the lucky ones who are on the TfL Rail network and those who are served by National Rail services.
 

swt_passenger

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This is the same bad reporting that occured back in February.

The key paragraph in the strategy document was this:

"TfL has targeted the highest priorities for devolution as being the
Southeastern network inner-suburban services from Dartford, Sevenoaks
and Hayes, and the West Anglia inner-suburban services from Enfield
Town, Hertford East and Chingford."

Source: http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mayors-rail-vision-2012-final.pdf

There's no way this is about whole franchises, as last time it was discussed. Indeed there is a section in that report that refers to something not a million miles from the last ill-fated attempt at an 'overground network' - simply a branding schemes on stations and existing stock, operated by the existing TOCs...
 

MikeWh

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(although surely things like Travelcards and I expect that Oyster thing already provide for that, don't they?)
In my eyes, London has always been divided by the lucky ones who are on the TfL Rail network and those who are served by National Rail services.
This is the crux of the issue. The travelcard is universal across London but is expensive for many ordinary return journeys. Oyster covers the whole of London, but although zonal based for fares there are 3 different scales. TfL rail is largely the cheapest and covers all LO plus c2c, FGW, Chiltern and the inter-available bits of GA and FCC nearest central London. NR rail is the rest of NR (SE, Southern, SWT, outer bits of GA and FCC) and tends to be a little more expensive, especially on longer journeys. The real killer is when you combine NR rail with either Underground or DLR on a journey involving zone 1; then you get a premium charge added on.

What Boris, and I suspect most London travellers, want is a single fare structure throughout the travelcard zones for all rail services. It would make the whole Oyster system so much simpler and probably eradicate a fair amount of the overcharging that currently goes on.
 

swt_passenger

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The real killer is when you combine NR rail with either Underground or DLR on a journey involving zone 1; then you get a premium charge added on.
That could be sorted out quite easily without needing to take over the services. Charge the passengers a standard zonal fare, but rejig the back office software to share out the fare box and TfL subsidy differently by route taken.

Passengers shouldn't need to know the detail at all, there must be something similar going on to share out travlecard fare income between all modes - including the buses...
 

Mojo

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However it's not just about fares of course. Generally speaking the standard provided by TfL Rail services is far superior to that provided by the Tocs, a few exceptions to be noted of course.
 
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