TfL to bid for Southeastern and Anglia franchises?

[pendolino]

Actually I dont wholly agree with that statement. They dont have to share their track with anyone else bar a few freights a day over most of the network IIRC.

They share with us at Southern south of New Cross Gate. Since LOROL started operations, it's now pretty much impossible to run to time (especially towards London Bridge) due to constantly running on restrictive aspects.

 

[jon0844]

So you'd like NI Railways services to be contracted to the private sector rather than run directly by Translink?

I don't know how things operate in NI and didn't think about it when I wrote what I did.

Let me say GB then, and let others comment on what should/could happen in NI. My idea isn't going to happen anyway, so it doesn't even matter.

 

[transmanche]

Out of interest, if TfL bid and run these franchises

But (as already discussed in this thread) TfL are not allowed to (bid for or) operate a franchise.
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Indeed. LO is far more than just new stock. It's an example of how to run an urban heavy-rail network, that PTEs and TOCs can learn from.

Actually I dont wholly agree with that statement. They dont have to share their track with anyone else bar a few freights a day over most of the network IIRC.

Will be a lot harder for them to provide the same level of service having to shares track space with other TOCs. They'll probably be still using the same stock as Southeastern are using now for quite sometime and should something happen going to any other the Terminals and they mess up its going to tarnish their image somewhat. Expect to see LOROL NPS results go down based on the terrible times SE have. Not to mention PPM.

The first thing I'd say in response is that LOROL != London Overground.

LOROL is not the same as London Overground. LOROL just happens to operate all services branded as London Overground at the moment - that doesn't mean that other organisations may operate other services branded as London Overground in the future.

The difference is in the level of control that TfL have. And for WLL/NLL/ELL/Goblin/Watford DC Lines, TfL specified a much higher level of customer service than was previously supplied by Silverlink.

And that's the difference between London Overground and other urban heavy-rail networks - and hence why I believe that PTEs and TOCs can learn from London Overground.

 

[jon0844]

If the DfT raised the bar for future franchises, it could see the same changes made on other lines - LO branded or not.

But the DfT looks at cost cutting, and getting as much money from a TOC as possible. As a tax payer, especially one that doesn't use the railway, you might consider that a good thing and that TfL is unnecessarily wasteful.

In London, most people use public transport (even if they own a car) and they'd be stupid if they didn't. I suppose you could argue that following the same model nationwide might not work, but I still think we could require franchises to do more.

The companies bidding would know exactly what they had to do before bidding, so there wouldn't be any nasty shocks and I doubt you'd see them all drop out.

 

[transmanche]

But the DfT looks at cost cutting, and getting as much money from a TOC as possible.

And that's the distinction, the DfT and the Mayor of London have very different prioritiies - even when they are of the same political persuasion.

As you say, for DfT it's all about the £££. Whereas for the Mayor, transport is treated as a wider social issue and looked at more 'holistically'. The £££ spent is balanced against increasing access to public transport, increasing mobility, reducing congestion, reducing pollution, etc, etc. And the residents of London get more of a say in how their tax money is spent, with transport being a major issue in each of the Mayoral elections.

And its only natural for a politician to want to make it clear where there policies make a difference - hence the use of the LO brand to distinguish TfL services from normal TOC-operated services.

 

[CNash]

From my point of view as a simple commuter, I'd be all for the Mayor's plan, especially if it could bring more frequent trains at LO ticket prices to Southeastern's Metro lines.

Replacing (or at least refurbishing) the 465 Networkers would be another benefit - I've always felt it's unfair that some routes get nice, spacious Electrostars, while the folks on the Dartford lines are invariably herded onto stuffy, dirty Networkers. The best part of my journey is when I change at Waterloo onto SWT's lovely air-conditioned Desiros

 

[hozza94]

How about a requirement on future franchises to make TOC operated London services to be LO branded and surely TfL can ask DfT to control over the timetable, staffing, etc.

 

[HSTEd]

We are trending towards a single London commuter franchise as it is, (super Thameslink), it is not unreasonable to suggest that we are heading towards an equilibrium consisting of a two commuter operators, with an expanded London Overground for inner metro stuff and then the Thameslink operator as the outer one.

 

[transmanche]

How about a requirement on future franchises to make TOC operated London services to be LO branded and surely TfL can ask DfT to control over the timetable, staffing, etc.

I think that's what the article linked to at the start of this thread actually means (as opposed to TfL bidding for the franchise - which we know they are not allowed to do).

What's not clear is whether the Mayor wants to create separate TfL-controlled LOROL-style concessions for the 'metro' parts of those franchises; or just for TfL to have more input/control over the specification, award and control over the replacement franchises.

 

[Southern]

Replacing (or at least refurbishing) the 465 Networkers would be another benefit - I've always felt it's unfair that some routes get nice, spacious Electrostars, while the folks on the Dartford lines are invariably herded onto stuffy, dirty Networkers.

Which are made that way by the wonderful people who don't seem to know what a bin is. Honestly, the cleaners/TOC can only do so much, the rest is up to the passengers.

 

[bicbasher]

They share with us at Southern south of New Cross Gate. Since LOROL started operations, it's now pretty much impossible to run to time (especially towards London Bridge) due to constantly running on restrictive aspects.

True, although I've found as a pax that the outer SLL services into London Bridge have had some kind of delay more so than the Caterham services before LOROL shared the line with Southern.

 

[Gareth]

We are trending towards a single London commuter franchise as it is, (super Thameslink), it is not unreasonable to suggest that we are heading towards an equilibrium consisting of a two commuter operators, with an expanded London Overground for inner metro stuff and then the Thameslink operator as the outer one.

Maybe the ghost of Network South East will rise again.

I understand than the wider London area has a massive population, but I do feel some consolidation is necessary, for both practical and branding purposes (don't underestimate the power of a familiar brand/trading name).

 

[island]

Which are made that way by the wonderful people who don't seem to know what a bin is. Honestly, the cleaners/TOC can only do so much, the rest is up to the passengers.

At least they have bins available for those minded to use them. Try an LM Desiro for size.

 

[ert47]

Replacing (or at least refurbishing) the 465 Networkers would be another benefit - I've always felt it's unfair that some routes get nice, spacious Electrostars, while the folks on the Dartford lines are invariably herded onto stuffy, dirty Networkers.

I have to travel between London Bridge and Charing Cross most days and I prefer to be on a 465/466 than a 375. The 375s arent exactly the freshest smelling units out there.


Reading through this topic, Im finding it funny how everyone seems to remember SEs 465s, 466s and 375s, but always forget about the 376s!!

Where is the love?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Which are made that way by the wonderful people who don't seem to know what a bin is. Honestly, the cleaners/TOC can only do so much, the rest is up to the passengers.

Quite ! -

 

[Class377/5]

From my point of view as a simple commuter, I'd be all for the Mayor's plan, especially if it could bring more frequent trains at LO ticket prices to Southeastern's Metro lines.

Replacing (or at least refurbishing) the 465 Networkers would be another benefit - I've always felt it's unfair that some routes get nice, spacious Electrostars, while the folks on the Dartford lines are invariably herded onto stuffy, dirty Networkers. The best part of my journey is when I change at Waterloo onto SWT's lovely air-conditioned Desiros

I doubt that TfL will money for new fleet, the Networker aren't bad units at all. If you really think they are that bad, try commuting on a pacer like a lot of people do.

I don't get why people seem to think LOROL/LO taking over equals new stock. It doesn't.

We are trending towards a single London commuter franchise as it is, (super Thameslink), it is not unreasonable to suggest that we are heading towards an equilibrium consisting of a two commuter operators, with an expanded London Overground for inner metro stuff and then the Thameslink operator as the outer one.

Agreed, if TfL get the metro services of SET, then the logical place is to run these from the Thameslink franchise. Thameslink Southeast anyone?

 

[transmanche]

I don't get why people seem to think LOROL/LO taking over equals new stock. It doesn't.

And similarly LO taking over additional services does not mean they'll be operated by LOROL.

 

[Class377/5]

And similarly LO taking over additional services does not mean they'll be operated by LOROL.

Quite, you could argument best to leave LOROL as it is and keep the line working as well as it does (when the infrastructure holds). Sometimes you can get too big. Another small team focused on getting the SE metro routes working better could be beneficial.

 

[Tommy3000]

Presumably the "Victoria to Bromley South" services mention would be the current 4tph Victoria - Orpington? which is only 3 stops after Bromley, and there wouldn't be any spare capacity on the line to an an extra services that terminates at Bromley.

I believe the proposed Vic-Bromley South off-peak service will go via the Catford Loop (TfL identified it as a possibility a few years ago), so it wouldn't be competing for space with the Orpington services until it hit Shortlands Junction.

 

[Batman]

I'm sorry but as someone who's political views are moderately right of centre, I cannot support the idea of a public body bidding for rail franchises.

And idea might by to merge the Anglia and South Eastern metro services into a single franchise with LO and to make the tendering of the franchise the responsibility of the Mayors office?

But that would require primary legislation and I wouldn't work so long as at least some of the above mentioned franchises operate outside of the boundaries of Greater London.

And there would also be pressure for Crossrail and Thameslink to be added to the same franchise. That might have some benefits as part of the governments overall strategy of consolidating franchises, but it might be seen by some as a re-creation of Network South East.

 

[transmanche]

I'm sorry but as someone who's political views are moderately right of centre, I cannot support the idea of a public body bidding for rail franchises.

But, as has been stated already, the GLA and TfL are not allowed to bid for rail franchises. So that's obviously not what was meant by the article.

Although, I do believe that the prohibition seems daft. It's stupid to insist that only a private sector business can run the franchise, even if a public sector body can make a bid that provides better value. That's just throwing money away!

 

[CNash]

I doubt that TfL will money for new fleet, the Networker aren't bad units at all. If you really think they are that bad, try commuting on a pacer like a lot of people do.

They're not bad units as far as their performance goes - but their interior design leaves much to be desired. I'm not the tallest of people (5'10") and I still find it difficult to sit down in the seats on SE's Networkers. And in the summer months, the lack of air conditioning makes for a pretty miserable experience.

As to your suggestion of trying to commute on a different class - I'd love to (as I enjoy travelling on different train classes), but like the majority of commuters, I have very little choice in the matter! Would it hurt SE to mix up their stock a little? It's galling to see the Cannon Street service stocked by Electrostars, while the Charing Cross service (on the same line) always gets Networkers.

 

[IanXC]

I suspect that, possibly in 2014, the coalition will undertake a "mop up" exercise to the Localism Act. I can see pressure from a number of sources (London Mayor, Liverpool Mayor, PTEs, devolved administrations) for the removal of the prohibition on public authorities bidding for franchises resulting in such a change being made at that time.

 

[DVD]

They're not bad units as far as their performance goes - but their interior design leaves much to be desired. I'm not the tallest of people (5'10") and I still find it difficult to sit down in the seats on SE's Networkers. And in the summer months, the lack of air conditioning makes for a pretty miserable experience.

As to your suggestion of trying to commute on a different class - I'd love to (as I enjoy travelling on different train classes), but like the majority of commuters, I have very little choice in the matter! Would it hurt SE to mix up their stock a little? It's galling to see the Cannon Street service stocked by Electrostars, while the Charing Cross service (on the same line) always gets Networkers.

Networkers can be a tight squeeze. Especially with their 3 + 2 seating. Half of them do in fact have a form of air conditioning / ventilation nozzles (albeit a fairly unsophisticated version) : those built by BREL . The other half built by Alsthom don't and can get rather hot and sweaty.

The 376 Electrostars are used on some Charing Cross services, not just Cannon Street trains. They have much better legroom, but rock hard seats causing sore bums. Rather like the 378s in fact.

 

[jon0844]

The 365s have the ball vents, which often don't work (either per coach or the entire train - not sure). In any case, they're no different than having a fan on - just blowing uncooled air over you.

Better than nothing, but certainly not a match for proper air con. Funny how people always say (when it isn't hot) that we don't need it in this country. Right now, people really do need it and want it.

Anyone working in an office or driving a car without it is probably suffering quite a bit right now. I've got two portable aircon units on at home at the moment (well, not at this exact moment but during the day).

 

[CNash]

The 365s have the ball vents, which often don't work (either per coach or the entire train - not sure). In any case, they're no different than having a fan on - just blowing uncooled air over you.

Then I'm fairly sure the 465s have them too - the one I was just on did, assuming it was a 465 (only going by interiors, as I forgot to check for certain). And you're right, they're either almost useless or don't work.

I don't tend to suffer from a numb bum on trains (though the new DLR stock feature some of the hardest upholstered seating I've ever experienced!), so that aspect of the Electrostars isn't an issue. I'd just like to give my knees some relief...

 

[jon0844]

Most likely the 465s do, given they're so similar (to the point where a 365 'starting up' will show BRB Class 465 on the displays!).

 

[Clip]

Quite, you could argument best to leave LOROL as it is and keep the line working as well as it does (when the infrastructure holds). Sometimes you can get too big. Another small team focused on getting the SE metro routes working better could be beneficial.

TfL is big enough already dont you think? I see no reason, that should they be allowed to go for this, that they shouldnt still use the LOROL branding? Why set up yet another company to work when you already have everything in place to be able to merge in with another railway?

Why splinter things off for no good reason?

Underground for underground and Overground for , what goes overground.

 

[Zoe]

TfL is big enough already dont you think? I see no reason, that should they be allowed to go for this, that they shouldnt still use the LOROL branding? Why set up yet another company to work when you already have everything in place to be able to merge in with another railway?

The branding currently used is London Overground rather than a LOROL specific branding and I would expect TfL to use this for any concession they let in London.

 

[ert47]

Then I'm fairly sure the 465s have them too - the one I was just on did, assuming it was a 465 (only going by interiors, as I forgot to check for certain). And you're right, they're either almost useless or don't work.

I don't tend to suffer from a numb bum on trains (though the new DLR stock feature some of the hardest upholstered seating I've ever experienced!), so that aspect of the Electrostars isn't an issue. I'd just like to give my knees some relief...

I think only some of the 465s have them, this is down to the whole BREL (ABB)/Metro Cammell construction split methinks