TFL Travelcard and Capping Changes

[lev441]

These changes are a complete disgrace when it comes to off peak travel.. why are travellers who are using services outside the peak penalised?

 

[Feathers44]

These changes are a complete disgrace when it comes to off peak travel.. why are travellers who are using services outside the peak penalised?

I doubt they're being 'penalised' as such. It's probably more that off-peak services now so busy that the 'incentive' of a discounted fare is no longer required.

 

[radamfi]

London will still have separate peak and off-peak fares for regular single Oyster fares.

I'm trying to think of a city outside the UK that has separate peak/off-peak fares for local city transport. I can think of day tickets covering a region or whole country that aren't valid in morning peak, but not for an individual city.

 

[Mojo]

I doubt they're being 'penalised' as such. It's probably more that off-peak services now so busy that the 'incentive' of a discounted fare is no longer required.

Outside of zone 1 and 2 (particularly at the ends of the lines), most Underground trains are carting fresh air around, at some fairly intensive frequencies. A notable exception is possibly the Heathrow branch of the Piccadilly line.

Whilst the Off-peak flat fare of £1.50 (or the even better £1 if you have a Railcard) for any TfL-priced journey that doesn't include zone 1, is an absolute steal, I think the withdrawal of Off-peak caps (and the effective withdrawal of the Off-peak Day Travelcard) is a retrograde step as it isn't necessarily about incentivising travel at traditionally quieter times, but disincentivising travel at traditionally busy times.

 

[Deerfold]

London will still have separate peak and off-peak fares for regular single Oyster fares.

I'm trying to think of a city outside the UK that has separate peak/off-peak fares for local city transport. I can think of day tickets covering a region or whole country that aren't valid in morning peak, but not for an individual city.

For many years West Yorkshire buses had an off-peak cap on single fares. I remember it being 30p for a long time. After privatisation of the buses many individual companies kept off-peak caps for several years but just for fun they started varying between companies.

I don't know any that still do it, though many have cheaper off-peak day tickets.

 

[island]

Yes they are. A significant number of Tube ticket machines have been modified to vend them - there is now at least one in every station, except for one station somewhere in East London for some reason (I forget which one).

Neil

The quoted post referred to TVMs not selling Oyster cards, which is correct. The machines at London Underground stations which sell Oyster cards would be POMs.

So am I right in thinking the following?
- Zones 1-6 Travelcard and a Network Railcard this weekend it would be £5.90
- From next year it would be £11.70

No, it will be £7.90 (and not £8).

Disabled railcards will receive the Oyster discount during the peaks.

Are you sure? Edit: nm found it

How does this impact those who have railcards that can be loaded into oyster. E.g Gold Card, JSA ( not sure if there are any others, armed forces?) Surely they are going to be heavily impacted?

As I understand it, an off-peak cap will still exist (valid 0930-0429 as before) for Railcard users at 34% less than the all-day cap.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London will still have separate peak and off-peak fares for regular single Oyster fares.

I'm trying to think of a city outside the UK that has separate peak/off-peak fares for local city transport. I can think of day tickets covering a region or whole country that aren't valid in morning peak, but not for an individual city.

Hamburg does, you have Tageskarten and 9-Uhr-Tageskarten valid, as the name suggests, after 9am (not for 9 hours like a load of British people think, that'd be 9-Stunden-Karte if anyone did that!)

They also have normal seasons and CC-Karten, the latter being valid after 9am only. A very unusual concept in the UK - only Merseytravel have an off-peak season product that I know of.

Neil

 

[Deerfold]

Hamburg does, you have Tageskarten and 9-Uhr-Tageskarten valid, as the name suggests, after 9am (not for 9 hours like a load of British people think, that'd be 9-Stunden-Karte if anyone did that!)

They also have normal seasons and CC-Karten, the latter being valid after 9am only. A very unusual concept in the UK - only Merseytravel have an off-peak season product that I know of.

Neil

The West Midlands and NX Coventry have off-peak season tickets. West Yorkshire and Nottingham City Transport both used to have off-peak seasons.

 

[devon_metro]

These changes are a complete disgrace when it comes to off peak travel.. why are travellers who are using services outside the peak penalised?

Many lines run a service close to (or better in the case of the Piccadilly Line) at off peak times, notably Saturday afternoons.

 

[Tetchytyke]

only Merseytravel have an off-peak season product that I know of.

TPE offer an "early bird" season ticket, which is basically the same thing.

 

[All Line Rover]

The reason they want people using Oyster instead of buying a Off Peak 1-6 Travelcard (with a railcard as I do for £5.90) is that they charge the full peak fare on Oyster between 16:30 and 18:59, while the Off Peak Day Travelcard is valid throughout, therefore making a day out more expensive.

No, using Oyster is not more expensive in this situation. Although Oyster charges peak PAYG fares between 16:00 and 19:00, these contribute to the Off Peak Price Cap (£8.50), which is less than the cost of an Off Peak Travelcard (£8.90). So Oyster users will never pay more than Travelcard users.

A different issue is that Railcards currently give 34% off Off Peak PAYG fares and Off Peak Price Caps. Given that the Off Peak Price Caps are to be scrapped, Railcard holders will lose out unless TfL change their policy so as to allow Railcard discounts to contribute to the Peak Price Cap. Also, if Travelcards are phased out, Family & Friends and Two Together Railcard holders will lose out unless TfL implement a means of linking Oyster cards.

 

[Deerfold]

A different issue is that Railcards currently give 34% off Off Peak PAYG fares and Off Peak Price Caps. Given that the Off Peak Price Caps are to be scrapped, Railcard holders will lose out unless TfL change their policy so as to allow Railcard discounts to contribute to the Peak Price Cap.

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-fares-for-2015?intcmp=23318#on-this-page-0

National Railcard off-peak daily caps will continue to be charged at a discount of 34% off the adult rate
Disabled Railcard peak and off-peak daily caps will be charged at a discount of 34% off the adult rate

 

[IanD]

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/campaign/new-fares-for-2015?intcmp=23318#on-this-page-0

National Railcard off-peak daily caps will continue to be charged at a discount of 34% off the adult rate
Disabled Railcard peak and off-peak daily caps will be charged at a discount of 34% off the adult rate

But the off peak cap is being scrapped so that first bit is not clearly defined.

 

[Be3G]

The off-peak cap remains for zonal combinations extending beyond 1–6. So I suppose that a literal interpretation of the TfL website quote means that the cheapest railcard-discounted off-peak cap would be the 1–9… I hope that's not what they really mean!

 

[IanD]

The off-peak cap remains for zonal combinations extending beyond 1–6. So I suppose that a literal interpretation of the TfL website quote means that the cheapest railcard-discounted off-peak cap would be the 1–9… I hope that's not what they really mean!

I suspect what they are saying is for railcards you'll be charged the 66% of the new peak cap for travel during the off-peak plus the full amount of any travel made during the peak.

 

[infobleep]

I suspect what they are saying is for railcards you'll be charged the 66% of the new peak cap for travel during the off-peak plus the full amount of any travel made during the peak.

If that is the case, would it be even more so in people's interest, come January, to buy a Litchfield Trent Valley to Litchfield City annual season ticket? After all that gives you gold card discounts on the tube off peak.

 

[simple simon]

There is no need to touch the Pink reader at Willesden Jcn when doing a journey from West Brompton to Stratford. The default fare is for travel via zone 2-3 (i.e. £1.50 peak and £1.60 off-peak).

The Maximum journey time for a Zone 2-3 journey is 90 Min Mon-Fri daytimes and 110 Min evenings and weekends, so you must have been very close, given the journey time is a few Min shy of an hour, plus your 25 Min wait.

Thanks for your reply, I had assumed that it would be via Z1.

Journey time limits are a real pain... I was only using PAYG because my wallet is threadbare so I was trying to save money... otherwise I'd have bought a paper ODTC.

btw, I think your peak hour / off-peak fares were transposed!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Very bad pricing info for Network Railcards

Simon

:cry:

http://www.network-railcard.co.uk/tickets-types-min-fares/

Minimum Fares

The minimum discounted adult fare payable is £13 on all journeys Monday to Friday. The minimum fare does not apply at weekends or on Public Holidays.

The minimum discounted child fare payable is £1 at all times.

The minimum fare payable for Anytime Day Travelcards is £17.00 at all times. The minimum fare payable for Off-Peak Day Travelcards is £13 Monday to Friday and £5.90 on weekends and public holidays.

Minimum fares apply to each individual travelling, not to the total value of tickets purchased.

 

[bb21]

Why is it bad info? It has always been like that.

 

[simple simon]

Why is it bad info? It has always been like that.

The £13 cost of a paper ODTC on weekdays.

Its many years since I had a Network Railcard, I stopped buying them when minimum fares were introduced, and did not realise that this was now £13 (I thought that it was still a tenner).

btw, re: the new fares, I wonder what constitutes a group? For instance, for a Steam on the Met event could people club together to source the cheaper ODTC's and will they have to travel together at all times?

Also, since I'm in zone 4 I'm thinking that it will at times be better to buy a weekly 2,3,4 Travelcard than pay 3x daily off-peak 1-4 fare caps. Especially on days when I'm likely to make multiple journeys. OK, I will only be able to travel on the buses in zone 1, but for many journeys the Overground offers easy links around Z1. Oh and I'll be able to travel earlier in the morning! Another advantage of a period Travelcard is the freedom from journey time limits. btw for the benefit of other people reading this, Oyster does check the routes people without Z1 validity travel and the use of pink oystercard readers is strongly recommended, if not absolutely required.

Or, if I must have zone 1 a bus to Leytonstone will see my fares cap at £7.50 (instead of using Gants Hill). In fact, if I simply do not want to travel both ways by bus then a £1.50 off-peak fare either to or from Leytonstone on a different Oystercard will still work out cheaper than the £9.20 fares cap. The 20p saving would not be much, but as the saying goes "every little helps", especially if done frequently.

Simon

ps: I forgot to mention, re: my letters to members of the GLA Transport Committee, I understand that Caroline Pidgeon will be asking some written questions to the Mayor at the December Mayoral Question Time - topics will include the fares increases unfairly affecting occasional passengers and how they could result in even more peak time overcrowding.

 

[Deerfold]

Or, if I must have zone 1 a bus to Leytonstone will see my fares cap at £7.50 (instead of using Gants Hill). In fact, if I simply do not want to travel both ways by bus then a £1.50 off-peak fare either to or from Leytonstone on a different Oystercard will still work out cheaper than the £9.20 fares cap. The 20p saving would not be much, but as the saying goes "every little helps", especially if done frequently.

I don't understand why you'd use a different Oystercard for the bus journey. If you've hit a fares cap you'll be able to use bus at no extra cost (even if that wasn't the case you'd pay a cap + a fare not the next cap up).

 

[Paul Kelly]

(even if that wasn't the case you'd pay a cap + a fare not the next cap up).

Yes, the clue is in the name - the cap is the maximum you'll pay if you travel in the given zones, not the minimum!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

and how they could result in even more peak time overcrowding.

Yes, indeed - I can certainly say for myself that if the off peak day paper travelcard is axed leaving just the peak one from Epsom then I'm no longer going to bother to wait for the 09.34; I'll more likely head out at around 07.45 or 08.00 on my bashing days off from work... Might as well get my money's worth...

Given that the queue at the ticket office is often 20 - 30 deep with people waiting for the 09.34 Waterloo / 09.42 Victoria on a weekday, I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who'd be thinking like that. That number of people is an extra half a carriage worth...

 

[67018]

Yes, indeed - I can certainly say for myself that if the off peak day paper travelcard is axed leaving just the peak one from Epsom then I'm no longer going to bother to wait for the 09.34; I'll more likely head out at around 07.45 or 08.00 on my bashing days off from work... Might as well get my money's worth...

Given that the queue at the ticket office is often 20 - 30 deep with people waiting for the 09.34 Waterloo / 09.42 Victoria on a weekday, I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who'd be thinking like that. That number of people is an extra half a carriage worth...

And how many of that half a carriage worth will try it a second time, after realising that travelling at 0800 means an unpleasant journey on a rammed train?

The thinking seems to be that there are plenty of good reasons to avoid travelling in the peak if at all possible, and so removing the price difference won't have as much impact as it might have done in the past. It will be very interesting, of course, to see if this is actually the case...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Rather ironically the 09.34 is usually rather more rammed than the three or four services preceeding it... Of course at 08.00 the picture will be somewhat different, I agree, but in the end the deciding factor is very likely going to be time.

 

[317 forever]

As most of my visits to London are with Virgin Saturday Super Off-peak Travelcards, I have never felt it necessary to buy an Oyster Card. With the abolition of Zone 1-2 Off-peak Travelcards (like I used on Easter Monday 2013) I considered getting an Oyster.

I have now read that a £5 bus and tram pass is being reintroduced. Next year I am planning to travel from Orpington to and around central London by bus, but avoid DLR, Underground or trains apart from one back from a non-zone 1 station like Herne Hill. So, if I use an Oyster card, will it charge me £5 (or less) for the buses and a seperate fare for the train, or charge me for effectively an Off-peak or even Peak Travelcard?

 

[Deerfold]

As most of my visits to London are with Virgin Saturday Super Off-peak Travelcards, I have never felt it necessary to buy an Oyster Card. With the abolition of Zone 1-2 Off-peak Travelcards (like I used on Easter Monday 2013) I considered getting an Oyster.

I have now read that a £5 bus and tram pass is being reintroduced. Next year I am planning to travel from Orpington to and around central London by bus, but avoid DLR, Underground or trains apart from one back from a non-zone 1 station like Herne Hill. So, if I use an Oyster card, will it charge me £5 (or less) for the buses and a seperate fare for the train, or charge me for effectively an Off-peak or even Peak Travelcard?

It will charge a £4.40 cap for bus+tram use + individual fares for the train(s) unless that causes it to hit another cap.

 

[67018]

Rather ironically the 09.34 is usually rather more rammed than the three or four services preceeding it... Of course at 08.00 the picture will be somewhat different, I agree, but in the end the deciding factor is very likely going to be time.

Good point - so eliminating this 'second peak' should be an advantage of the change. Maybe there's also an expectation that people are so used to the peak-off peak differential that they will carry on regardless, so any changes will be gradual.

 

[317 forever]

It will charge a £4.40 cap for bus+tram use + individual fares for the train(s) unless that causes it to hit another cap.

Thank you for letting me know, and so quickly Deerfold. This is a fair and sensible arrangement. I gather that Oyster "calculates" the range of fares for our combination of journeys, and charges us the minimal total valid combination applicable.

 

[Deerfold]

Thank you for letting me know, and so quickly Deerfold. This is a fair and sensible arrangement. I gather that Oyster "calculates" the range of fares for our combination of journeys, and charges us the minimal total valid combination applicable.

Yes - that's right.

 

[simple simon]

Or, if I must have zone 1 a bus to Leytonstone will see my fares cap at £7.50 (instead of using Gants Hill). In fact, if I simply do not want to travel both ways by bus then a £1.50 off-peak fare either to or from Leytonstone on a different Oystercard will still work out cheaper than the £9.20 fares cap. The 20p saving would not be much, but as the saying goes "every little helps", especially if done frequently.

The point is, if I've been running around central London making many journeys which cap at £7.50 and then use the same Oystercard to travel into Z4 then I'll find myself being charged a Z4 cap of £9.20.

But, if I use a different Oystercard for an off-peak journey between Z3 and Z4 then I'll end up being charged a total of £9.00 (£7.50 + £1.50).

OK, the 20p saving is a pittance, but when you feel that you are being fleeced by a faceless money-grabbing organisation then it feels good to find a lawful way to reduce the amount of money it extricates from your wallet!

If I do this 3 times then I've already saved enough for a Magnum type of ice cream from a shop near to where I live.

Simon