TfL's timetable: confusing and pointless as it doesn't show the GWR services along the same route

II

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AM9

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A confusing and largely pointless timetable, given it doesn't also show the GWR services from Paddington that also call at the local stations between there and Reading.
Have GWR actually published their corresponding timetable yet? It's perfectly good enough for all Paddington to Heathrow passengers and most of those going as far as Maidenhead.
Much better than guessing. Most passengers can read two timetables, just like they have been on the GEML for services from Liverpool St.
 

theironroad

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A confusing and largely pointless timetable, given it doesn't also show the GWR services from Paddington that also call at the local stations between there and Reading.
I did wonder that, especially when I noticed that T5 at Heathrow and any connecting trains had been obliterated . Maybe a combined table will be released later.
 

II

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Have GWR actually published their corresponding timetable yet? It's perfectly good enough for all Paddington to Heathrow passengers and most of those going as far as Maidenhead.
Much better than guessing. Most passengers can read two timetables, just like they have been on the GEML for services from Liverpool St.
I disagree. For example you could be led to believe there is no overnight service out of London to Hayes etc. because GWR continue to operate those.

Having to consult two timetables when one can be provided is very customer unfriendly - let’s hope GWR’s offering lists all trains and/or the TfL one is revised.
 

AM9

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I disagree. For example you could be led to believe there is no overnight service out of London to Hayes etc. because GWR continue to operate those.

Having to consult two timetables when one can be provided is very customer unfriendly - let’s hope GWR’s offering lists all trains and/or the TfL one is revised.
I asked whether GWR has published its corresponding timetable yet. If that timetable isn't available yet, Tfl can hardly include times that they don't have.
Tfl is not responsible for the GWR service and are really providing a service to their customers. Much of the cost of providing and running Crossrail is from GLA taxpayers, so it is to those that the service is directed. GWR can obviously embed the Tfl times into theirs, if they are ready by the time they start running to them!
 

II

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I asked whether GWR has published its corresponding timetable yet. If that timetable isn't available yet, Tfl can hardly include times that they don't have.
Tfl is not responsible for the GWR service and are really providing a service to their customers. Much of the cost of providing and running Crossrail is from GLA taxpayers, so it is to those that the service is directed. GWR can obviously embed the Tfl times into theirs, if they are ready by the time they start running to them!
I think I would be inclined to agree with that had the TfL rail timetable made a clear and frequent reference saying something like "There are other services throughout the day between London Paddington and Reading, operated by GWR serving Ealing Broadway, Hayes & Harlington, West Drayton, Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford. GWR also operate additional services overnight serving those stations as well as Southall and limited services to Iver, Langley, Taplow and Burnham. See gwr.com for details."

That would be a much better way of providing information to their customers - many of which will not be aware of, or care who, operates their train, but might now think they can't get back to Hayes after 23:43.
 

jimm

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I asked whether GWR has published its corresponding timetable yet. If that timetable isn't available yet, Tfl can hardly include times that they don't have.
Tfl is not responsible for the GWR service and are really providing a service to their customers. Much of the cost of providing and running Crossrail is from GLA taxpayers, so it is to those that the service is directed. GWR can obviously embed the Tfl times into theirs, if they are ready by the time they start running to them!
There are such things as internal industry channels - which is how the full timetable gets developed in the first place.

TfL would have had not any trouble finding out the GWR timings if they wanted to - or just putting in the sort of note about the GWR services that II suggests if they were in a crashing hurry to put timetable pdfs together.

As for the idea that this is good enough for Maidenhead passengers, most of the peak period commuters are far more interested in when the GWR fast services are running than TfL's offering - at least until the Crossrail tunnel opens and they can get to the West End and City direct, when some people's choices may change.
 

AM9

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... TfL would have had not any trouble finding out the GWR timings if they wanted to - or just putting in the sort of note about the GWR services that II suggests if they were in a crashing hurry to put timetable pdfs together.

As for the idea that this is good enough for Maidenhead passengers, most of the peak period commuters are far more interested in when the GWR fast services are running than TfL's offering - at least until the Crossrail tunnel opens and they can get to the West End and City direct, when some people's choices may change.
So either TfL's crashing hurry to get timetable pdfs together means that nobody* needs the information yet so they can ignore it, i.e. 'nothing to see here' and wait for GWR to get their act together, - or those wanting/needing to use the services offered by TfL Rail (i.e. Crossrail) can learn from these published timetables.
With all the complaints about NR and some TOCs issuing their schedules late in previous years, I'm surprised that somebody is criticising TfL for being on time. For whatever reason, GWR isn't ready but there's no reason to delay information for Heathrow and the zone 1-6 services. Maybe GWR will include TfL services in their timetable, particularly as existing GWR customers want to carry on as if Crossrail won't exist.

*except those going to Heathrow and zone 1-6 stations
 

swt_passenger

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Regarding TfL/GWR, is it not the case that only the primary operator on the route has to include other operators trains in his timetable? In the current LO WLL timetable they seem to happily list all the SN services, presumably because LO are the main operator on that route?
 

jimm

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So either TfL's crashing hurry to get timetable pdfs together means that nobody* needs the information yet so they can ignore it, i.e. 'nothing to see here' and wait for GWR to get their act together, - or those wanting/needing to use the services offered by TfL Rail (i.e. Crossrail) can learn from these published timetables.
With all the complaints about NR and some TOCs issuing their schedules late in previous years, I'm surprised that somebody is criticising TfL for being on time. For whatever reason, GWR isn't ready but there's no reason to delay information for Heathrow and the zone 1-6 services. Maybe GWR will include TfL services in their timetable, particularly as existing GWR customers want to carry on as if Crossrail won't exist.

*except those going to Heathrow and zone 1-6 stations
GWR's idea of 'getting its act together' has tended to be that it is one of the last TOCs to send its pocket timetables to print and put pdfs online - so that the information is as comprehensive and accurate as possible, including giving as much detail as possible about services operated by other TOCs that share its routes.

Is there something wrong with that? Because I am failing to see what the problem is with such an approach.

Whereas I do have a big problem with TOCs that issue timetables that only show their own trains - or don't even include a note recognising that there are alternatives/additional trains sharing the same tracks. TfL is not the first to do this sort of thing, but that is no excuse. If the main aim is to encourage more people to use trains, then it is in every operator's interests to do all that they can to help that happen.

Anyone who uses Twyford and Maidenhead and sees that TfL timetable might well get the impression that their off-peak service is being halved from mid-December. Are you going to try to defend that?
 

AM9

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GWR's idea of 'getting its act together' has tended to be that it is one of the last TOCs to send its pocket timetables to print and put pdfs online - so that the information is as comprehensive and accurate as possible, including giving as much detail as possible about services operated by other TOCs that share its routes.

Is there something wrong with that? Because I am failing to see what the problem is with such an approach.

Whereas I do have a big problem with TOCs that issue timetables that only show their own trains - or don't even include a note recognising that there are alternatives/additional trains sharing the same tracks. TfL is not the first to do this sort of thing, but that is no excuse. If the main aim is to encourage more people to use trains, then it is in every operator's interests to do all that they can to help that happen.

Anyone who uses Twyford and Maidenhead and sees that TfL timetable might well get the impression that their off-peak service is being halved from mid-December. Are you going to try to defend that?
TfL are managing their own train services. If GWR want to run it to the line for whatever reason they might offer, that's their choice, - it's a privatised railway. Anybody looking at the TfL timetable who is used to the current level of service would (if they have any sense at all) investigate further. That is no big thing. The main aim of GWR is to encourage people to use GWR trains. Similarly, the main aim of TfL is to provide transport services to London passengers and visitors, and encourage them to use TfL services.
It might not be helpful to some but the system was set up with chinese walls in the name of competition and profit, - not my preference. I do remember though when it was LTE and BR, (not west of London) that stations served by both would have separate timetables posted on the same platform. The format and presentation was different but anybody using the trains soon learnt to read both.
This practice is not new and not really an issue for almost everybody.
 
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cactustwirly

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TfL are managing their own train services. If GWR want to run it to the line for whatever reason they muight offer, that's their choice, - it's a privatised railway. Anybody looking at the TfL timetable who is used to the current level of service would (if they have any sense at all) investigate further. That is no big thing. The main aim of GWR is to encourage people to use GWR trains. Similarly, the main aim of TfL is to provide transport services to London passengers and visditors, and encourage them to use TfL services.
It might not be helpful to some but the system was set up with chinese walls in the name of competition and profit, - not my preference. I do remember though when it was LTE and BR, (not west of London) that stations served by both would have separate timetables posted on the same platform. The format and presentation was different but anybody using the trains soon learnt to read both.
This practice is not new and not really an issue for almost everybody.
Well passengers from Ealing, Hayes, West Drayton, Slough, Maidenhead etc will be using both TfL and GWR services, so the TfL timetable is useless as it only shows half the services between these stations
 

Mag_seven

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A confusing and largely pointless timetable, given it doesn't also show the GWR services from Paddington that also call at the local stations between there and Reading.
Does the LNER TT show FCC trains between Kings Cross and Peterborough or the Virgin Trains TT show WMT services between Euston and Milton Keynes? Thought not.
 

cactustwirly

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Does the LNER TT show FCC trains between Kings Cross and Peterborough or the Virgin Trains TT show WMT services between Euston and Milton Keynes? Thought not.
But LNER don't operate semi fast services/commuter services between Peterborough and London do they?
 

bicbasher

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Regarding TfL/GWR, is it not the case that only the primary operator on the route has to include other operators trains in his timetable? In the current LO WLL timetable they seem to happily list all the SN services, presumably because LO are the main operator on that route?
They don't do the same for the ELL/SLL timetable which have a mix of Southern, Southeastern and Thameslink services which they share stations with.
 

Ianno87

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Have GWR actually published their corresponding timetable yet? It's perfectly good enough for all Paddington to Heathrow passengers and most of those going as far as Maidenhead.
Much better than guessing. Most passengers can read two timetables, just like they have been on the GEML for services from Liverpool St.
I'm enjoying this very quaint notion that passengers still actually pick up timetables to plan their journeys...
 

158756

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It might not be a printed timetable, but plenty of people do still use a timetable.

Commuters at the likes of Hayes however will probably just turn up at the station, and if a GWR train turns up before TfL they'll get on that even if it's not in the timetable.
 

jimm

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TfL are managing their own train services. If GWR want to run it to the line for whatever reason they muight offer, that's their choice, - it's a privatised railway. Anybody looking at the TfL timetable who is used to the current level of service would (if they have any sense at all) investigate further. That is no big thing. The main aim of GWR is to encourage people to use GWR trains. Similarly, the main aim of TfL is to provide transport services to London passengers and visditors, and encourage them to use TfL services.
It might not be helpful to some but the system was set up with chinese walls in the name of competition and profit, - not my preference. I do remember though when it was LTE and BR, (not west of London) that stations served by both would have separate timetables posted on the same platform. The format and presentation was different but anybody using the trains soon learnt to read both.
This practice is not new and not really an issue for almost everybody.
If it's not your preference, then why on earth are you so determined to defend this selfish, compartmentalised bit of nonsense on the part of TfL?

GWR are also quite keen on doing all that they can to encourage use of the railway full stop, not just their own trains, whatever you may think their main aim is supposed to be.

The poor deluded fools have included all TfL services out of Paddington in timetable T10 ever since they started operating to Hayes and Heathrow, rather than taking the juvenile attitude TfL has adopted.

I'm enjoying this very quaint notion that passengers still actually pick up timetables to plan their journeys...
Ah yes, how quaint to be able to see a whole day's services on a route at a glance - or check a train time while in a mobile phone or wi-fi blackspot, or when your device has a flat battery, etc.
 

sjoh

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If it's not your preference, then why on earth are you so determined to defend this selfish, compartmentalised bit of nonsense on the part of TfL?

GWR are also quite keen on doing all that they can to encourage use of the railway full stop, not just their own trains, whatever you may think their main aim is supposed to be.

The poor deluded fools have included all TfL services out of Paddington in timetable T10 ever since they started operating to Hayes and Heathrow, rather than taking the juvenile attitude TfL has adopted.
It's actually within both operators' interests to advertise all services, as the revenue is apportioned by ORCATS for relevant journeys anyway. Nobody is on advance fares between Reading and Paddington, so it really doesn't matter what colour the train is, and both operators get money for every journey.
 

JonathanH

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Nobody is on advance fares between Reading and Paddington, so it really doesn't matter what colour the train is, and both operators get money for every journey.
Very few if any people travelling from Reading to Paddington are going to be using TfL Rail services, just as they don't use GWR's stopping service at the moment. I agree that there aren't advance purchase tickets specifically between Reading and Paddington.

People could very well hold 'Great Western only' advance purchase tickets for journeys from stations east of Reading to stations further west that won't be valid on TfL Rail.

Advance purchase tickets are not the only means of travel that restrict someone to a certain operator.
 

sjoh

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Very few if any people travelling from Reading to Paddington are going to be using TfL Rail services, just as they don't use GWR's stopping service at the moment. I agree that there aren't advance purchase tickets specifically between Reading and Paddington.

People could very well hold 'Great Western only' advance purchase tickets for journeys from stations east of Reading to stations further west that won't be valid on TfL Rail.

Advance purchase tickets are not the only means of travel that restrict someone to a certain operator.
To clarify, I meant "stations between Reading and Paddington inclusive". My point being that for journeys made within and between these two stations, there is little benefit in either operator excluding the others' services from their timetables in order to drum up business on their own trains, as ultimately it makes little if not no difference to their remuneration from those journeys as the farebox is apportioned through ORCATS and not on a per train basis. Hope that makes a little more sense.
 

swt_passenger

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The TfL timetable linked in the first post does now include the remaining GW stopping services between Paddington and Reading... Can anyone confirm that is a change since this thread was first created?
 

Indigo2

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The TfL timetable linked in the first post does now include the remaining GW stopping services between Paddington and Reading
Very interesting that it shows the 0334 Paddington to Reading at the start of the day, and the 0134 Paddington to Reading at the end of the day, as if the railway day still finished at 0229 - but isn't the TfL day supposed to finish at 0429, meaning the 0334 should also be shown at the end of the day?

Another observation: currently the 2351 Paddington to Reading is a kind of parliamentary service - it's the only train that calls at every station between Paddington and Reading. It looks like it's having some of its stops removed from the December timetable change, and there will no longer be any trains in the timetable that call at all stations PAD-RDG.
 

radamfi

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Is there even a need for a separate pdf timetable for this line? They could just refer you to T117 of the electronic national rail timetable.
 

radamfi

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From that perspective there’s no need for any TOC PDF?
All other TOCs still do printed leaflets so they might as well do a pdf as well. Do TfL do printed timetables any more?

British Rail used to issue extracts of the national rail timetable. For example there used to be booklets called "Manchester North and Preston" and "Manchester South and Potteries".
 

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Does the LNER TT show FCC trains between Kings Cross and Peterborough or the Virgin Trains TT show WMT services between Euston and Milton Keynes? Thought not.
Well, VWC show LNW Crewe trains calling at Milton Keynes (and all the other stops served by VWC) in the London - Crewe TT.
LNW TTs show SN and VWC trains.
 

II

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The TfL timetable linked in the first post does now include the remaining GW stopping services between Paddington and Reading... Can anyone confirm that is a change since this thread was first created?
Excellent news and it is now a proper resource for people wishing to make journeys on that route. Well done TfL Rail.
 

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