TfW 197 Ramps

[danbarjon]

(if this is in the wrong place someone please direct me)

I've just gotten off a TfW train and when getting off I used the ramp but I'm just really confused as to why TfW need 2 ramp parts and also isn't this time consuming as my train was on time but by the time of leaving it was 4 minutes late. Liverpool assistance staff told me they aren't allowed to use their ramps and neither are other platform staff.

Many thanks!

 

[Adam0984]

The Northern 195s have a 2 part ramp too for stations with a camber that causes the ramp to pivot on the step, so the long part goes on the stepboard with the small 2nd bit going in the top holes and overlaps onto the long part

 

[danbarjon]

The Northern 195s have a 2 part ramp too for stations with a camber that causes the ramp to pivot on the step, so the long part goes on the stepboard with the small 2nd bit going in the top holes and overlaps onto the long part

Ah seems pretty similar. Maybe not just a 197 exclusive..

 

[Undiscovered]

Ah seems pretty similar. Maybe not just a 197 exclusive..

196s also have the same.

 

[Mugby]

I noticed this at Crewe on Wednesday, it was a TfW 197 on Platform 6 which is straight with no camber. The two parts of the ramp were used and the smaller. top section seems to just an extension piece for the main ramp. One thing which really surprised me was that two parts appear to be stowed away in separate cupboards, one by the front exit door and one by the inner exit door.
It certainly added to the dwell time packing the two parts away.

 

[Starmill]

It certainly added to the dwell time packing the two parts away.

There isn't really a need for the ramp to be stowed before the train can depart. Obviously they do need to be deployed, and if the assist isn't known about in advance, they won't be able to be taken out before the train arrives. Unless the train is so busy the conductor literally can't get the ramps in and out on the move, which is of course always a possibility.

This is one reason why it is so much better if the station staff can use the correct ramp themselves, though of course at stations it's highly variable what ramps are where and who's available and trained to use them.

One of the newer types of L-shaped wheeled ramps might be good at solving this, but I have absolutely no idea if there's one that's compatible with the Civity trains.

 

[Krokodil]

Most TfW station staff still haven't been trained on 197 ramps, let alone staff working for other TOCs. It's ridiculous, the things have been in service for more than a year now. Naturally at 50% of stations there won't be a set of guard's door controls on the platformed door next to the wheelchair space so that adds time, particularly at Manchester Piccadilly P13/14 - somewhere you really don't have time to spare.

Nor is there a permanent home for the ramp extension, it currently lives in the cupboard earmarked for the catering trolley. There is also confusion as to which platforms are too low to use the main ramp without the extension, the document issued when they first entered service contradicted itself on consecutive pages - one stating that it should be used everywhere and the other giving a list of platforms where it wasn't needed.

I was on a GWR 80x recently and noticed that at the doors next to the cab there was a folding plate in the floor. I asked the guard who said that it was an extension for the ramp - that would have been a better solution.

Of course the best solution would have been that used in South Wales - step-free boarding on the Stadler units.

 

[Lurcheroo]

There isn't really a need for the ramp to be stowed before the train can depart. Obviously they do need to be deployed, and if the assist isn't known about in advance, they won't be able to be taken out before the train arrives.

One must also consider that realistically, a conductor doesn’t really want to be holding a ramp as they’re completing dispatch procedures. Their full attention should be on dispatch. Should something happen one the first things that would get asked in reviewing CCTV is why you haven’t put the ramp away to ensure you’re fully focused on dispatch as that is how we’re trained and how we’re expected to perform our duties. They don’t care for the extra minute it takes, and would never press us to either.

Of course, I’ve don’t it, as have many others.

It certainly added to the dwell time packing the two parts away.

I’m told that it is being sorted that the bridging plate will live with the main ramp which will make things slightly better.

 

[sd0733]

I’m told that it is being sorted that the bridging plate will live with the main ramp which will make things slightly better.

One unit was fitted with an extra little cupboard behind the seat next to the main ramp cupboard.
Unfortunately, it wasn't very good and the door fell off after about 2 uses and I've not seen another since.

 

[Adam0984]

Theyre in seperate cupboards because the 2nd part was an after thought and obviously the storage of them together couldn't be corrected for the 196/197s. During PTI testing for the 195s and early usage in traffic it was found that a small percentage of stations needed the extra part to stop the pivoting effect

 

[danbarjon]

I noticed this at Crewe on Wednesday, it was a TfW 197 on Platform 6 which is straight with no camber. The two parts of the ramp were used and the smaller. top section seems to just an extension piece for the main ramp. One thing which really surprised me was that two parts appear to be stowed away in separate cupboards, one by the front exit door and one by the inner exit door.
It certainly added to the dwell time packing the two parts away.

My guard yesterday had to get the ramp from the wheelchair toilet button cupboard and then the other bit from the huge catering thing further down the carriage, fit it all to the train on the platform, take it apart afterwards, store it again and then run back to the rear of the train to dispatch the train. It's a really strange system. Was delayed by nearly 5 minutes while all of this happened.

 

[Starmill]

One must also consider that realistically, a conductor doesn’t really want to be holding a ramp as they’re completing dispatch procedures. Their full attention should be on dispatch. Should something happen one the first things that would get asked in reviewing CCTV is why you haven’t put the ramp away to ensure you’re fully focused on dispatch as that is how we’re trained and how we’re expected to perform our duties. They don’t care for the extra minute it takes, and would never press us to either.

Of course, I’ve don’t it, as have many others.


I’m told that it is being sorted that the bridging plate will live with the main ramp which will make things slightly better.

Holding the ramp? Why would they be holding it? Just put it down on the floor next to the door that's not platformed. That's a very common way of working.

 

[Lurcheroo]

One unit was fitted with an extra little cupboard behind the seat next to the main ramp cupboard.
Unfortunately, it wasn't very good and the door fell off after about 2 uses and I've not seen another since.

Lol ! That’s quite funny.

Holding the ramp? Why would they be holding it? Just put it down on the floor next to the door that's not platformed. That's a very common way of working.

Interesting thought, hadn’t really thought about it, I only worked 158’s so room can be tight in the vestibules.
But still, and I think many conductors have the same thought process, it’s not your delay, and when reporting the delay you put it down due to ramp assistance and ultimately might make them find a proper solution.
I worked in production line engineering before the railway and it was infuriating to have someone say “you’ve never fixed this problem” only to find out they’ve been ‘working around’ it and not letting downtime accumulate as proof that it’s an issue. It’s a backwards system sometimes but the purse string holders need numbers as evidence.

 

[Krokodil]

I’m told that it is being sorted that the bridging plate will live with the main ramp which will make things slightly better.

We've been waiting about as long for that as we've been waiting for the station staff to be trained.

Theyre in seperate cupboards because the 2nd part was an after thought and obviously the storage of them together couldn't be corrected for the 196/197s. During PTI testing for the 195s and early usage in traffic it was found that a small percentage of stations needed the extra part to stop the pivoting effect

Beyond a certain gradient the step fouls the ramp.

But still, and I think many conductors have the same thought process, it’s not your delay, and when reporting the delay you put it down due to ramp assistance and ultimately might make them find a proper solution.

Yep. If doing it by the book causes a delay then that provides an incentive for management to sort it out.

 

[Britannia94]

Deleted

 

[Lurcheroo]

We've been waiting about as long for that as we've been waiting for the station staff to be trained.

Sounds about right, I’m glad I’ve swapped grades before dealing with it

Yep. If doing it by the book causes a delay then that provides an incentive for management to sort it out.

Yep absolutely. I know starmill suggested leaving it on the floor at the non-platform side but again, if someone trips over it and injury’s themselves, it would be our head on the block. Always best to do it by the book, no comeback that way.
I was unfortunately involved in an incident at Telford as a conductor, CCTV was reviewed and I couldn’t be faulted as I did it absolutely by the book. Didn’t stop me feeling dead worried that I’d messed up somewhere!

From experience

Just that ?

 

[L401CJF]

As said earlier the bridging plate was an afterthought, and originally was only for use at stations where use of the main ramp wouldn't work as it wouldn't clear the door step to slot into the lugs. Generally platforms with a large step down/on a camber etc.

It was then changed to use both at all stations regardless (presume to make things easier and minimise errors), however as said it's not ideal. Options are being looked at to keep the bridging plate nearer the main ramp. Originally they were kept in a cupboard behind the toilet but they were rubbing on wires/hoses and had to be moved to the catering unit temporarily. The plan is still to have the trolleys in the catering unit long term so the plate will have to find a new home!

Regarding keeping ramps by the door during dispatch to reduce delay etc, that's a big no. We are told to stow the ramp before dispatch incase it falls over onto somebody or somebody trips on it. I generally put the big ramp away before closing up and keep the bridging plate next to me, then pop it away once I've keyed out. If you've got a trolley onboard, often the host will help by putting one half away for you.

 

[topydre]

Wouldn't be a problem if the civities weren't so much higher than the units they're replacing. Bringing in a unit with a larger vertical gap between the train and the platform after so much talk of improved accessibility was an astonishing decision