TfW Depots And Fleet Alternatives

[Rhydgaled]

I've started this topic largely in response to the following post by @Belperpete, to avoid taking the class 197 thread too far off-topic.

Extra depots cost money. Buying more 197s costs money. TfW and the Welsh Assembly don't have a magic money pot. What should have been cut to afford the extra depots and larger fleet that some posters think should have been procured?

For starters, there was (in my opinion at least) no pressing need to replace the class 175s and very little to be said against retaining the class 158s. Had TfW planned to keep those units on and ordered thirty new 3-car units to supplement them, they would have ended up with a slightly larger total fleet but far fewer new-build vehicles. That would have reduced the capital cost of the new fleet considerably, although since most stock is currently leased rather than purchased by the TOC (TfW in this case) I'm not sure what difference it would make to the Welsh Government's budget.

Arriva	Arriva	KeolisAmey	KeolisAmey	Rhydgaled	Rhydgaled	TfW 2024 (intent)	TfW 2024 (intent)
Mark 3 coaches	3 x four-coach sets	Mark 4 coaches	3 x four-coach sets	Mark 4 coaches	8 x 5-coach sets	Mark 4 coaches	8 x 5-coach sets
Class 158 (2-car)	24	Class 197 (2-car ETCS)	21	Class 158 (2-car)	24	Class 197 (2-car ETCS)	21
Class 175 (2-car)	11	Class 197 (2-car)	30	Class 175 (2-car)	11	Class 197 (2-car)	30
Class 175 (3-car)	16	Class 197 (3-car)	26	Class 175 (3-car)	16	Class 197 (3-car)	26
Total Sets	54	Total Sets	80	New unit (3-car)	29	Total Sets	80
(of which new-build)​	0​	(of which new-build)​	77​	Total Sets	88	(of which new-build)​	77​
Total Vehicles	130	Total Vehicles	192	Total Vehicles	229	Total Vehicles	220
(of which new-build)​	0​		180​		87​		180​
Total Toilets (excl. LHCS)	118		103		205		103

...with the overriding reason being, of course, that new train orders are now all about battery electric or multi-mode (no more pure diesel).

Maybe more centre cars is something that could be got away with, as they wouldn't be "new trains" and therefore wouldn't be subject to the "no more new pure diesel trains" thing.

As I've said previously, they wouldn't be "more 197s" anyway, because new train orders are now all about battery electric (for non-electrified lines) or multi-mode (for both non-electrified and electrified lines) - no more pure diesel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jul 2025 ==


Again, there won't be any more 197s, at least not entire units. Maybe they could get away with ordering more centre cars though.

If this logic had been followed at the time (as, in hindsight, it should have been), the class 197 fleet would never have been ordered. At the time, I was so desperate for more express stock (in part to ensure sufficient high-quality units were available that things like 150s wouldn't have to stand in on long-distance services) that I would probably have been happy with a small fleet of pure DMUs, provided they were to a similar specification as the class 175s (but with the addition of unit end gangways) to supplement (rather than replace) the 175s and 158s. However in hindsight, a total ban on procurement of new diesel-only passenger stock should have been introduced long ago. When Jo Johnson announced the ambition to take all diesel-only trains off the track by 2040 in February 2018, construction of the class 195s had already commenced, and they will have barely passed 20 years old by 2040. Everything new (in this context) should be being built with the capacity to collect all it's power needs from OHLE (where available). While Johnson's announcement came too late to stop the 195s, I don't think the TfW franchise contract had been signed yet. The class 197 order should have been killed at that point.

Frankly trying to renew the entire company's fleet in one go was a mistake (and TfW have admitted as such). They should just have renewed the Valleys fleet, kept the 175s and 158s for a bit longer, and supplemented with extra rolling stock. 180s for example, if anyone could make those things run reliably it would be Alstom at Chester.

Agreed, they shouldn't have tried to renew the entire fleet, although have TfW really admitted that?

One of the things I was crossing my fingers for in the 2018 re-franchising was that the ex-GA class 156s (I think it was nine units), which had received PRM mods, would have been brought it to suplement/replace ATW's 153s and for Landore depot to be taken over by the Wales & Borders franchise and used as a base for these (for use on Swansea-Pembrokeshire/Carmarthen services, and possibly the Heart Of Wales). The latter would depend on whether the 175s had been used in fixed 5-car pairs on Swansea-Manchester or left as individual units (in which case I'd have deployed the 2-car ones on the HOWL and Conwy valley - unfortunately the lack of end gangways and ETCS make them unsuitable for the Cambrian).

There were only 27 175's vs now double that of 197's. So you'd still be getting 2 or 3 car 175's working Manchester services to North Wales and South Wales.

Not necessarily if you had a small new fleet (or even if the ex-GA 170s hadn't been needed elsewhere and TfW could have kept them*) and the small fleet of mark 4s to suplement them. As I hinted above, I would have either have wanted:

• nine 5-car pairs of class 175s (diagrammed to remain coupled all day) diagrammed on Swansea - Manchester (leaving two pairs spare at Chester and five single 175/1 units, some diagrammed for use aand others spare) or
• deployment of the 2-car 175s on the Heart Of Wales and Conwy Valley, perhaps with some of the 3-car sets being paired to run Holyhead-Manchester or Holyhead-Crewe-Birmingham fast services as six-car formations, fixed all day similar to the above

In either case, I would have tried to deploy any single 3-car 175s on fast services on routes such as Chester-Wrexham-Cardiff and Cardiff-Llanelli* and Holyhead-Chester-Crewe.

* in which case the 170s might have been great for the promissed Liverpool-Llandudno services, although I'm not sure how they could have been maintained - again I'm led to ponder the fragmented nature of franchising and think it might make more sense to deliver those using depots and units which currently fall under the Northern and/or TPE silo(s).
** bypassing Swansea and with very few stops, to both maintain through services to Cardiff in the event that the Manchester went with the 175s option and try to complete with the M4

The 158's are still in the fleet and won't be going anywhere until the switch over to ETCS 197's.

Even then, TfW have been promissing more Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury services for years, and only 21 new units have been specified with ETCS, compared to 24 class 158s. I don't want the 197s getting anywhere near the fast services into Birmingham (the wide doors, lots of standing room, fewer toilets, faster dwell times concept makes alot more sense for the all-stations services currently run by West Midlands Trains) but:

• if the extra Aberystwyth workings are just going to be shuttles between there and Shrewsbury,
• since the mistake of building a large fleet of suburban DMUs (the 197s) has already been made,
• some 158s were unfortunately damaged in the collision (as you mentioned),
• the first morning service from Shrewsbury has been cut back to Welshpool due to TfW not having traincrew based in England who sign the Cambrian and the first eastbound from the Cambrian not reaching Shrewsbury early enough in the morning to bring the crews,
• 2-car 158s can get quite busy on the Cambrian mainline at times and
• the depot building at Machynlleth doesn't seem to be long enough to take 3-car units:

I would suggest that some Shrewsbury, Crewe or Chester staff are trainned to work the Cambrian (at least as far as Machynlleth or Dovey Junction) and the ETCS gear on some of the fitted 197s be moved onto some of the 3-car 197s and that one or two of these are diagrammed for the Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury shuttles needed to fill the gaps in the timetable to deliver the long-awaited hourly service.

 

[Caaardiff]

In hindsight it might've been better for the 175's to transfer to the Cambrian work replacing the 158s. TFW would need to take on the heavy maintenance of them as they do now with the 158's.
That being said, I'm not sure why we have to keep going over extensive "what if's" about TFW's fleet. The 197 fleet is just about in and won't be going anywhere. The discussion really should be about the future of the 197 fleet and how it will be needed in the future.

Even then, TfW have been promissing more Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury services for years, and only 21 new units have been specified with ETCS, compared to 24 class 158s. I don't want the 197s getting anywhere near the fast services into Birmingham (the wide doors, lots of standing room, fewer toilets, faster dwell times concept makes alot more sense for the all-stations services currently run by West Midlands Trains) but:

The difference is that a standardised fleet of 197's means they can work with each other with more effective diagramming.

The 158's are over 35 years old now and are starting to show it.

I would suggest that some Shrewsbury, Crewe or Chester staff are trainned to work the Cambrian (at least as far as Machynlleth or Dovey Junction)

Never going to happen, and it doesn't need to.

 

[Krokodil]

Agreed, they shouldn't have tried to renew the entire fleet, although have TfW really admitted that?

I'm pretty sure that they've said so publicly (but I'm not going to try and work out where I read the statement). They've certainly admitted it face-to-face though.

Never going to happen, and it doesn't need to.

Shrewsbury guards already sign Aberystwyth. Having the drivers sign it too would certainly allow an earlier first westbound train.

 

[Caaardiff]

Shrewsbury guards already sign Aberystwyth. Having the drivers sign it too would certainly allow an earlier first westbound train.

It would only create a small degree of flexibility.
But it would also mean Machynlleth Drivers having to learn Birmingham to free up the Drivers from other Depots to cover Cambrian work. Sounds very messy.

 

[Krokodil]

But it would also mean Machynlleth Drivers having to learn Birmingham to free up the Drivers from other Depots to cover Cambrian work.

It doesn't have to. In fact haven't drivers from one depot recently lost Birmingham anyway?

 

[Caaardiff]

But you have an allocation of Machynlleth and Pwllheli Drivers to cover the current service. If you take some of that work away from them and give to another Depot, you need to find work for the Cambrian Drivers to do. Otherwise you're left with inefficient workings or redundancies. Add in the cost of training all those drivers at a time when everyone is talking about wasting money on the railway, it doesn't make any sense.

If this is all about running the first Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth, get them in earlier and taxi them to Shrewsbury, which is what used to happen and was obviously not deemed worth it.

 

[Envoy]

I will be glad to see the back of the 158’s having spent too long in them cooking in summer because of failed air-con. The 175’s were nice trains but due to a lack of corridor connection, could not be used efficiently where 5 cars are needed on the Swansea to Manchester route.

So, we are here we are as of now and the Welsh Government have asked TFW to consider new trains going forward. I would like to see new bi-mode 5 car trains ordered of an Inter-City nature with level boarding (as we have with the FLIRTS). These would be used on Swansea to Manchester limited stop runs. The 197’s could be used between Pembrokeshire and Cardiff as semi-fasts using the Swansea District Line with new stations at Pontarddulais (with large free car park) and near the DVLA with direct access from M4 to a free car Park. These 197 trains could continue as stoppers on the The Marches being as that route is not likely to be electrified any time soon.

Some of the present 197’s would replace the 153’s on the Heart of Wales. I would prefer it if Heart of Wales Trains ran via the Swansea District line through to/from Cardiff and anyone wanting Swansea could change at Port Talbot.

We don't know how things will pan out going forward regarding passenger flows. The new trains already in service appear to have led to TFW having the greatest increase in passengers of any TOC recently.
If electrification were extended to Swansea and from Filton to Temple Meads, then that would open up the possibility of having electric stoppers between Swanseas and Bristol. It also helps justify having new bi-mode 5 car express trains for the Swansea to Manchester route with the added bonus that the IET’s on the London run can use the overhead power.

We need to see the new tram-trains in service on the core valley lines to ascertain how they perform and the loadings to help make informed decisions regarding the Metro fleet.

 

[Krokodil]

I will be glad to see the back of the 158’s having spent too long in them cooking in summer because of failed air-con

At least the emergency hopper windows on 158s provide some respite. No such thing on a 197 and TfW seem to be content to send the units out in a heatwave with known a/c compressor faults.

 

[Topological]

I will be glad to see the back of the 158’s having spent too long in them cooking in summer because of failed air-con. The 175’s were nice trains but due to a lack of corridor connection, could not be used efficiently where 5 cars are needed on the Swansea to Manchester route.

So, we are here we are as of now and the Welsh Government have asked TFW to consider new trains going forward. I would like to see new bi-mode 5 car trains ordered of an Inter-City nature with level boarding (as we have with the FLIRTS). These would be used on Swansea to Manchester limited stop runs. The 197’s could be used between Pembrokeshire and Cardiff as semi-fasts using the Swansea District Line with new stations at Pontarddulais (with large free car park) and near the DVLA with direct access from M4 to a free car Park. These 197 trains could continue as stoppers on the The Marches being as that route is not likely to be electrified any time soon.

Some of the present 197’s would replace the 153’s on the Heart of Wales. I would prefer it if Heart of Wales Trains ran via the Swansea District line through to/from Cardiff and anyone wanting Swansea could change at Port Talbot.

We don't know how things will pan out going forward regarding passenger flows. The new trains already in service appear to have led to TFW having the greatest increase in passengers of any TOC recently.
If electrification were extended to Swansea and from Filton to Temple Meads, then that would open up the possibility of having electric stoppers between Swanseas and Bristol. It also helps justify having new bi-mode 5 car express trains for the Swansea to Manchester route with the added bonus that the IET’s on the London run can use the overhead power.

We need to see the new tram-trains in service on the core valley lines to ascertain how they perform and the loadings to help make informed decisions regarding the Metro fleet.

This is a very sensible list.

Depot wise, there is a suggestion that a new depot would be needed for the bi-modes and that there would need to be more facilities for 197s in the south. It would be great to think that TfW would look at some of the land that has been steel works sidings for such. Port Talbot would be a natural start point for the early/late services since you gain an early connection into Cardiff on diagrams that start in Cardiff. Diagrams that need to go to Carmarthen, or Swansea, to begin would be well enough located anyway.

 

[D365]

For starters, there was (in my opinion at least) no pressing need to replace the class 175s and very little to be said against retaining the class 158s.

Other than the fact that the Class 158s are - in common with other Sprinter types - approaching end of life.

If this logic had been followed at the time (as, in hindsight, it should have been), the class 197 fleet would never have been ordered. At the time, I was so desperate for more express stock (in part to ensure sufficient high-quality units were available that things like 150s wouldn't have to stand in on long-distance services) that I would probably have been happy with a small fleet of pure DMUs, provided they were to a similar specification as the class 175s (but with the addition of unit end gangways) to supplement (rather than replace) the 175s and 158s. However in hindsight, a total ban on procurement of new diesel-only passenger stock should have been introduced long ago. When Jo Johnson announced the ambition to take all diesel-only trains off the track by 2040 in February 2018, construction of the class 195s had already commenced, and they will have barely passed 20 years old by 2040. Everything new (in this context) should be being built with the capacity to collect all it's power needs from OHLE (where available). While Johnson's announcement came too late to stop the 195s, I don't think the TfW franchise contract had been signed yet. The class 197 order should have been killed at that point.


Agreed, they shouldn't have tried to renew the entire fleet, although have TfW really admitted that?

By the time you are replacing the legacy DMUs, it seems sensible to take the opportunity to replace the now mid-life [and numerically inferior] Class 175s, no?

One of the things I was crossing my fingers for in the 2018 re-franchising was that the ex-GA class 156s (I think it was nine units), which had received PRM mods, would have been brought it to suplement/replace ATW's 153s and for Landore depot to be taken over by the Wales & Borders franchise and used as a base for these (for use on Swansea-Pembrokeshire/Carmarthen services, and possibly the Heart Of Wales).

The Class 156 units are in the twilight years of their working lives, at best.

Even then, TfW have been promissing more Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury services for years, and only 21 new units have been specified with ETCS, compared to 24 class 158s. I don't want the 197s getting anywhere near the fast services into Birmingham (the wide doors, lots of standing room, fewer toilets, faster dwell times concept makes alot more sense for the all-stations services currently run by West Midlands Trains) but:

• if the extra Aberystwyth workings are just going to be shuttles between there and Shrewsbury,
• since the mistake of building a large fleet of suburban DMUs (the 197s) has already been made,
• some 158s were unfortunately damaged in the collision (as you mentioned),
• the first morning service from Shrewsbury has been cut back to Welshpool due to TfW not having traincrew based in England who sign the Cambrian and the first eastbound from the Cambrian not reaching Shrewsbury early enough in the morning to bring the crews,
• 2-car 158s can get quite busy on the Cambrian mainline at times and
• the depot building at Machynlleth doesn't seem to be long enough to take 3-car units:

I would suggest that some Shrewsbury, Crewe or Chester staff are trainned to work the Cambrian (at least as far as Machynlleth or Dovey Junction) and the ETCS gear on some of the fitted 197s be moved onto some of the 3-car 197s and that one or two of these are diagrammed for the Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury shuttles needed to fill the gaps in the timetable to deliver the long-awaited hourly service.

Unless CAF decides to stop providing OEM support for their onboard EVC, the units fitted with ETCS will not have it removed. The value of the equipment is not worth the time that would be required to salvage it from a unit - unless it’s a unit that is long term stopped for other reasons.

 

[tfw756rider]

Unless CAF decides to stop providing OEM support for their onboard EVC, the units fitted with ETCS will not have it removed. The value of the equipment is not worth the time that would be required to salvage it from a unit - unless it’s a unit that is long term stopped for other reasons.

I know that OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer, but what does EVC stand for?

 

[D365]

I know that OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer, but what does EVC stand for?

Apologies - European Vital Computer

It’s the safety critical computer within an ETCS (European Train Control System) onboard installation.

 

[tfw756rider]

Apologies - European Vital Computer

It’s the safety critical computer within an ETCS (European Train Control System) onboard installation.

No worries, thanks

 

[craigybagel]

In hindsight it might've been better for the 175's to transfer to the Cambrian work replacing the 158s. TFW would need to take on the heavy maintenance of them as they do now with the 158's.
That being said, I'm not sure why we have to keep going over extensive "what if's" about TFW's fleet. The 197 fleet is just about in and won't be going anywhere. The discussion really should be about the future of the 197 fleet and how it will be needed in the future.

I'm going to avoid commenting on that part of this thread - I've had to many discussions over the years with certain posters about 197s and it's clear their opinions are never going to change.

The 158's are over 35 years old now and are starting to show it.

This i will say though is very important - and again has been posted numerous times. The 158s are, to put it gently, knackered. Not replacing them was not an option.

Never going to happen, and it doesn't need to.

It doesn't have to. In fact haven't drivers from one depot recently lost Birmingham anyway?

But you have an allocation of Machynlleth and Pwllheli Drivers to cover the current service. If you take some of that work away from them and give to another Depot, you need to find work for the Cambrian Drivers to do. Otherwise you're left with inefficient workings or redundancies. Add in the cost of training all those drivers at a time when everyone is talking about wasting money on the railway, it doesn't make any sense.

If this is all about running the first Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth, get them in earlier and taxi them to Shrewsbury, which is what used to happen and was obviously not deemed worth it.

I can see both sides to this argument. There are definitely efficiencies to be had in having a traincrew depot in England signing the Cambrian again. It's not just the morning that's an issue, but also the last train arriving at Shrewsbury in the evening is rather early. Historically it was Crewe drivers who signed it, only losing it on the introduction of ERTMS, though if it was brought back today you'd expect it to go to Shrewsbury instead. (When Shrewsbury's ATW depot was opened, it was mostly crewed with new hires and it was felt that making them work RETB, plus NSTR for the Heart of Wales, and AB for the other lines out of Shrewsbury at the time was a bit unreasonable - so the work stayed with the senior link at Crewe).

No driver depots have lost Birmingham (it was the guards at Crewe who recently lost it) - so it is still signed by 3 depots (Shrewsbury, Crewe and Chester).

An English depot learning the Cambrian could only be done without any loss of work for the existing Welsh depots; a transfer of well paid jobs from Wales to England would never be politically acceptable, what ever other arguments were brought about. But could it be done as part of a timetable improvement (like the fabled all day hourly service to Aber)?

I definitely wouldn't rule out English based drivers learning the Cambrian sooner or later - and as I've pointed out many times - one big difference with TfW compared to their predecessor is they have shown themselves happy to change plans and go with something different when necessary.

Unless CAF decides to stop providing OEM support for their onboard EVC, the units fitted with ETCS will not have it removed. The value of the equipment is not worth the time that would be required to salvage it from a unit - unless it’s a unit that is long term stopped for other reasons.

Much more likely they'd just increase the number of sets that have it fitted, if necessary. All the sets are ready for it to summer extent; we've been led to beliy it's a much less complicated job than on the 158s.

 

[Caaardiff]

A new Depot in Swansea (Landore) could mean any new fleet could be maintained there and at Crewe to run the Swansea - Manchester services, with Depots at either end. Canton could pick up 197 maintenance work to ease the pressure on Chester.

Does anyone know how many units (E.g. 5 car) would be needed to run a consistent all day Swansea - Manchester service? Im guessing 5 mk4 diagrams plus 5-6 197 diagrams. I'm guessing a fleet of 15 new 5 car trains would be sufficient, allowing for spares and maybe picking up a Holyhead or two.
Does anyone know the stabling capacity Landore had under GWR?

 

[Jez]

A new Depot in Swansea (Landore) could mean any new fleet could be maintained there and at Crewe to run the Swansea - Manchester services, with Depots at either end. Canton could pick up 197 maintenance work to ease the pressure on Chester.

Does anyone know how many units (E.g. 5 car) would be needed to run a consistent all day Swansea - Manchester service? Im guessing 5 mk4 diagrams plus 5-6 197 diagrams. I'm guessing a fleet of 15 new 5 car trains would be sufficient, allowing for spares and maybe picking up a Holyhead or two.
Does anyone know the stabling capacity Landore had under GWR?

Swansea to Manchester is around 4.5 hours so when you factor in turnaround times at either end you would require 10 diagrams.

This doesnt include any work the units may do in West Wales. With there being more direct services between Carmarthen and Cardiff with the GWR and the Pembroke Dock's running through to Cardiff hopefully it wont matter if all Manchester terminate at Swansea.