TfW found to be worst TOC in the UK

[Anonymous10]

so yesterday November 24th it was released on Welsh newspapers that tfw have been found to be the worse toc by customer satisfaction. the percentage of people with a negative view of the company is 22% and with a positive view is also 22%. what's everyone's opinion on this

Wales has ‘worst rail services in the UK’

NEWS that Wales has the worst train services in the UK is disappointing but not at all surprising, the Welsh Conservatives have said.A YouGov poll found people in Wales rate their local train services worse than any other area in Britain.It found that 22% of Welsh residents believe rail...

pembrokeshire-herald.com

A YouGov poll found people in Wales rate their local train services worse than any other area in Britain.

It found that 22% of Welsh residents believe rail provision is bad in their area with 11% responding that they do not have any local train services at all.

Welsh Conservative Shadow Minister for Transport, Natasha Asghar MS, said: “The results of this YouGov poll sadly come as no surprise for people living in Wales.

“Transport for Wales, which is owned by the Welsh Labour Government, has consistently failed to address the problem of overcrowding on Welsh trains which is becoming more frequent

 

[irish_rail]

Too many short trains is their biggest problem in my opinion and I don't see it getting better with the new trains frankly.

 

[Merseysider]

I don’t think I’ve EVER been on a TfW service longer than 3 carriages.

 

[Western 52]

Too many trains are cancelled, short formed or late. I know they are short of staff and trains, but this has been long term.

 

[TravelDream]

They are currently going through a five billion pound investment programme with over a hundred new trains on order as well as significant investment taking place on the Core Valleys Lines.

Obviously it's not the best at the moment with lines being shut/ reduced operating hours/ reduced timetables/ cancellations due to lack of staff/ crowding on many services, but things should imprve quite dramatically by 2023.

This will be especially the case in the Valleys where most lines will double in frequency from 2 to 4 trains per hour and on the Marches line where the 2/3 carriage trains will be replaced by 5 carriage ones increasing capacity fairly significantly.

 

[JonathanH]

I don’t think I’ve EVER been on a TfW service longer than 3 carriages.

They do exist. 4-car 769s in the Valleys and paired up 158s on the services out of Birmingham to mid and north Wales.

Problem with these 'worst TOC' stories is that people just nominate the operator they use most.

 

[Max]

They are currently going through a five billion pound investment programme with over a hundred new trains on order as well as significant investment taking place on the Core Valleys Lines.

Obviously it's not the best at the moment with lines being shut/ reduced operating hours/ reduced timetables/ cancellations due to lack of staff/ crowding on many services, but things should imprve quite dramatically by 2023.

I appreciate the longer term plan, but the service is absolutely woeful in the Cardiff area at the moment (much worse than pre-pandemic) so "wait until 2023" doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Delays/ cancellations/ short forms are a daily occurance at the moment (just look at the state of play for today for example), with huge gaps in service on some lines. I totally get that TfW have had the perfect storm to deal with (lack of rolling stock, backlog of training etc.) but rather than the feeble apologies (which are even stating to become few and far between), I want to know what the company is doing to get the current service provision running more reliably. And sadly there appears to be no plan at the moment.

My partner is much more affected than me in all honesty, as I only make a short hop into Cardiff and most of my journeys are on GWR (who, despite being pretty imperfect themselves, do seem to suffer far fewer total timetable collapses than TfW!).

 

[STINT47]

Where did this survey come from and who was surveyed?

If TFW is really to be rated the worse TOC then the survey needs to have been done by someone Inderpendant and with representation throught the UK.

 

[scotrail170407]

I’ll sometimes looks at TfW diagrams on RTT and a shockingly large amount of services I look at are 20+ minutes late, much more than any other TOC I’ve seen. Some examples after just a minute or so of browsing RTT;

Realtime Trains - 2L65 1646 Cheltenham Spa to Tondu

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 1K72 1826 Holyhead to Crewe

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - 1W64 1300 Carmarthen to Manchester Piccadilly

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I have also noticed that some tfw services have ridiculously short turnaround times, specifically at Manchester Piccadilly and Holyhead:

Realtime Trains | Departures from Manchester Piccadilly between 2210 and 2220 on 25/11/2021

Train information at Manchester Piccadilly between 2210 and 2220 on 25/11/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I mean, a -1 minute turnaround; how on earth is this allowed? I know the inbound from Carmarthen is booked to take slightly longer between Stockport and Piccadilly but even then it’s less than 5 minutes turnaround

 

[The exile]

I mean, a -1 minute turnaround; how on earth is this allowed? I know the inbound from Carmarthen is booked to take slightly longer between Stockport and Piccadilly but even then it’s less than 5 minutes turnaround

It's only -1 by the public timetable, it's +4 by the working timetable. Strictly speaking it's not a turnaround either, since it carries on in the same direction, and even at that time of night, I doubt there's enough slack to leave a train sitting on the through lines at Piccadilly for any length of time. However, given the distance the inbound train has come, I would guess the chances of the continuation to Chester leaving on time are pretty remote. There's a limit to how much assets can / should be "sweated" and I suspect that some TOCs passed that point long ago (or would have done if it hadn't been for C***D!)

 

[507020]

I don’t think I’ve EVER been on a TfW service longer than 3 carriages.

I’ve seen paired 2 car 175s on Manchester Airport - Chester once or twice, but I went on a single 2 car 175 from Crewe to Newport last week and I was very satisfied with the journey. I didn’t see a standing passenger the whole way.

 

[AgentGemini]

Interesting. How was this data collected? Afterall, I see worse out there nearby.

 

[Darandio]

It was YouGov, make of that what you will. It isn't quite as clear cut as TfW being the worst TOC in the UK, those asked were rating their local services. Here is the link which you would really need to visit in order to take it all in, quoting here wouldn't make much sense given the amount of graphs and images involved.

How do Britons rate their local train services? | YouGov

Wales has the highest proportion of people saying their local services are bad

yougov.co.uk

 

[Merseysider]

I mean, a -1 minute turnaround; how on earth is this allowed? I know the inbound from Carmarthen is booked to take slightly longer between Stockport and Piccadilly but even then it’s less than 5 minutes turnaround

There’s a Tardis on Platform 14

Also not unheard of on the Bidston - Wrexham line - there were some 1m journey times between Upton and Bidston at one point.

I was once looking at a journey from S. Wales up to Manchester and the planner thought it was quicker to take TFW as far as Stockport, wait for 5 minutes for a Virgin, and take that up to Picc, as TfW had allowed something ridiculous like 20+ minutes in the public timetable for SPT-MAN.

I understand the various reasons but it’s just plain weird.

 

[scotrail170407]

It's only -1 by the public timetable, it's +4 by the working timetable. Strictly speaking it's not a turnaround either, since it carries on in the same direction, and even at that time of night, I doubt there's enough slack to leave a train sitting on the through lines at Piccadilly for any length of time. However, given the distance the inbound train has come, I would guess the chances of the continuation to Chester leaving on time are pretty remote. There's a limit to how much assets can / should be "sweated" and I suspect that some TOCs passed that point long ago (or would have done if it hadn't been for C***D!)

Didn’t realise it used a through platform, so here’s a slightly more questionable example at Holyhead;

Realtime Trains | Departures from Holyhead between 0920 and 0930 on 29/11/2021

Train information at Holyhead between 0920 and 0930 on 29/11/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Still just less than a 5 minute turnaround in the wtt where it actually turns around!

 

[fgwrich]

SWR Breathing a sigh of relief there!

I can't say I'm surprised to be honest, a lot of my Welsh friends and colleagues have said their service has progressively declined over the last few years - rolling stock issues included (769s I'm also looking at you!).

 

[AgentGemini]

RE turnarounds - TFW just one of some TOCs that have tight turns. WMR seem to have a lot of squeaky bum 2-4mins at places like Stourbridge, Worcester Foregate and Stratford, as well as at Birmingham New ST on their DMU services (Shrewsbury I believe?)

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Didn’t realise it used a through platform, so here’s a slightly more questionable example at Holyhead;

Realtime Trains | Departures from Holyhead between 0920 and 0930 on 29/11/2021

Train information at Holyhead between 0920 and 0930 on 29/11/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Still just less than a 5 minute turnaround in the wtt where it actually turns around!

Unless Holyhead has a specific rule in the Timetable Planning Rules that states a say 10 minute turnaround is needed, there is nothing that prevents TFW from having a 5 minute turnaround. I think the minimum turnaround time on a class 175 is 3 or 4 minutes.

 

[nw1]

They do exist. 4-car 769s in the Valleys and paired up 158s on the services out of Birmingham to mid and north Wales.

Problem with these 'worst TOC' stories is that people just nominate the operator they use most.

Though that's not always true. I wouldn't rate SWR - the one I use the most - the worst TOC, though currently I just about exclusively use them for leisure purposes.

If however you rely on one of them for commuting I can imagine you'd be more frustrated.

 

[TravelDream]

Nothing in Wales has improved since devolution

Laughable.

If you read the post just a few centimeters above your own, you'd see that TFW are investing 5 billion pounds over the next few years on new trains, infrastructure and service improvements.

The Valley Lines each had a single hourly service on a two-carriage Pacer when devolution began. Do realise trains weren't actually devolved then so the then Assembly Government could do nothing to improve services.
The ownership of those Valleys Lines only went to the Welsh Government in 2020. By 2023, those same lines will see four-hourly services with brand new electric trains. A true transformation.

 

[507020]

Laughable.

If you read the post just a few centimeters above your own, you'd see that TFW are investing 5 billion pounds over the next few years on new trains, infrastructure and service improvements.

The Valley Lines each had a single hourly service on a two-carriage Pacer when devolution began. Do realise trains weren't actually devolved then so the then Assembly Government could do nothing to improve services.
The ownership of those Valleys Lines only went to the Welsh Government in 2020. By 2023, those same lines will see four-hourly services with brand new electric trains. A true transformation.

If TfW “are investing” present tense not “have invested” £5 billion in future improvements that we have not seen yet, then nothing has improved, but that’s not to say it won’t. On the contrary it certainly will improve and quite soon.

The removal of the Pacers and their replacement with 769 DEMUs as a stop-gap arguably isn’t an improvement because it’s compromised the reliability of the service, so they’re equally bad, rather than going straight from Pacers to the brand new fleet.

I hope you mean they intend to run 4tph on the valley lines because a 4 hourly service on any line is truly laughable.

 

[tbtc]

Makes me nostalgic for the days when people were moaning about Arriva and the "no growth" franchise

Now the Government has a lot more control over things, the "no growth" days are long gone, Arriva were replaced by Keolis/Amey over three years ago, and there's nobody else to blame.... and the operations are apparently now the worst in the UK?

Passenger numbers are understandably below pre-Covid numbers, services have been thinned out, so why is there so much overcrowding (given that there's scope to lengthen trains, given that other services aren't being operated)?

Be careful what you wish for, I guess - at least Arriva were a handy scapegoat for each and every problem - whereas now you really need to be delivering (rather than still promising things will be great in just another couple of years, despite having been running the franchise for over three years) - it's amazing how much wool you can pull over people's eyes when there's some nationalism involved

 

[TravelDream]

If TfW “are investing” present tense not “have invested” £5 billion in future improvements that we have not seen yet, then nothing has improved, but that’s not to say it won’t. On the contrary it certainly will improve and quite soon.

I hope you mean they intend to run 4tph on the valley lines because a 4 hourly service on any line is truly laughable.

'Are investing' is exactly that. In the process of investing. Works on the CVL are already well underway and will hopefully be ready by the end of 2022. The new trains have been ordered. The Class 197s which will replaces the 158s and 175s have already started testing and training and the 398s which will be used on the Core Valley Lines are already under construction and should be with us in the not too distant future.
Some improvements have already taken place like fare cuts, new services to Liverpool among others.

By 4 hourly I meant 4 trains per hour so sorry for the confusion. That's on the extremities. Pontypridd to Queen Street will see 12 per hour.

Obviously the 769s haven't been the best for reliability.

 

[Anonymous10]

I don’t think I’ve EVER been on a TfW service longer than 3 carriages.

ive been on a 3 coach and have heard of a 4 coach one i think rhymney is the only service of 4 coaches when the 769s operate, besides the gerald of Wales service. when the mk4s arrive in full there will be a few more but not many

 

[DelW]

I hope you mean they intend to run 4tph on the valley lines because a 4 hourly service on any line is truly laughable.

It's what TfW's Heart of Wales line gets (4 trains per day at roughly 4-hour intervals).

 

[AGH]

I've been on a TfW 4 car on the north Wales line. They are even running 5 car in the morning but stopping less which means added into COVID, they are running rather empty. Makes little sense

 

[TrainLover121]

I don't know about this, TfW are miles better than ATW was and I'm 99% sure I've seen that photo of a "crowded train" years ago. It's not perfect but at least TfW are investing in new trains and infrastructure, but that's probably because it's nationalised now!

 

[Darandio]

and I'm 99% sure I've seen that photo of a "crowded train" years ago.

Good spot! Despite the article suggesting "Crowded: Train in Cardiff last week (Image WNS)" a reverse image search shows it as a screengrab from a video taken in 2017. Naughty!

 

[Llandudno]

One of the most infuriating excuses for TfW train cancellations or late running is

‘due to a lack of resource availability’

This meaningless phrase probably winds up many people and possibly influenced their answers in the YouGov survey!

 

[Sheridan]

Didn’t realise it used a through platform, so here’s a slightly more questionable example at Holyhead;

Realtime Trains | Departures from Holyhead between 0920 and 0930 on 29/11/2021

Train information at Holyhead between 0920 and 0930 on 29/11/2021. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Still just less than a 5 minute turnaround in the wtt where it actually turns around!

The tight turnarounds are exacerbated at the moment by a 20mph Emergency Speed Restriction at Gaerwen which means that even trains which leave Bangor on time are 1-2 minutes late at Holyhead. The time is often made up by Bangor or Llandudno Junction on the return journey, though.