TfW locomotive options for the loco hauled services

[adrock1976]

Regarding the MkIV sets and the Class 67s, is it intended for there to be a loco change to/from an electric one for the Crewe - Manchester section?

Should if that is the case, it would be a small step into banning the use of diesel traction at train shed type stations, of which Manchester Piccadilly is one assuming the ex Cardiff still runs via Wilmslow.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Regarding the MkIV sets and the Class 67s, is it intended for there to be a loco change to/from an electric one for the Crewe - Manchester section?

Should if that is the case, it would be a small step into banning the use of diesel traction at train shed type stations, of which Manchester Piccadilly is one assuming the ex Cardiff still runs via Wilmslow.

Extremely unlikely.

 

[craigybagel]

Regarding the MkIV sets and the Class 67s, is it intended for there to be a loco change to/from an electric one for the Crewe - Manchester section?

Should if that is the case, it would be a small step into banning the use of diesel traction at train shed type stations, of which Manchester Piccadilly is one assuming the ex Cardiff still runs via Wilmslow.

Not a hope. The paths at Crewe are too tight to allow for the loco swap. Throw in training costs, and the complexities of making the DVT compatible with both electric and diesel locos and it seems like way too much effort for a very small gain.

 

[adrock1976]

Extremely unlikely.

Not a hope. The paths at Crewe are too tight to allow for the loco swap. Throw in training costs, and the complexities of making the DVT compatible with both electric and diesel locos and it seems like way too much effort for a very small gain.

Many thanks to both of you.

Another thought that has come into my mind here - whenever there are big delays on the northbound workings, I have noticed from my unscientific observations that the trains get curtailed at Crewe (usually Platforms 7-8) instead of continuing to Manchester so as to get the corresponding southbound working back on time.

Will both Platforms 7-8 at Crewe be long enough for a late running northbound 67+MkIVs to be terminated there?

 

[craigybagel]

Many thanks to both of you.

Another thought that has come into my mind here - whenever there are big delays on the northbound workings, I have noticed from my unscientific observations that the trains get curtailed at Crewe (usually Platforms 7-8) instead of continuing to Manchester so as to get the corresponding southbound working back on time.

Will both Platforms 7-8 at Crewe be long enough for a late running northbound 67+MkIVs to be terminated there?

Platform 7 is, but it's no longer available for that use most of the time now that the LNWR Euston service uses it. Platform 8 won't be long enough - but Platform 12 is usually free most of the day so should be an option instead.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

P7 at Crewe can hold an 8-car LNR 350, so shouldn't be a problem for TfW's Mk4s.

Somewhere in the TfW plan is a new Abergavenny terminator, making 2tph from Cardiff. .
An hourly West Wales-Abergavenny 197 service could meet that aim, and maybe take some stops out of the long-distance services.

 

[HST43257]

Somewhere in the TfW plan is a new Abergavenny terminator, making 2tph from Cardiff. .
An hourly West Wales-Abergavenny 197 service could meet that aim, and maybe take some stops out of the long-distance services.

Excellent, so this means the Manchester to South Wales path can have GWR calling points up to Swansea, and the service from Abergavenny can take out everywhere from Bridgend to Swansea (then anywhere else further west)

 

[47827]

Works out if it took about the same time as now you'd get at best get a departure off either end about every 5 hours. Speeding the journey times up would probably just give better turn arounds in South Wales or recovery time en route. Can't see Manchester squeezing any longer as Network Rail probably can't do much better than the present.

A standard timetable every 2 hours from Swansea, with the earliest and latest trains not running West of Cardiff, likewise late and early Manchester sets mostly using Crewe overnight with ECS or passenger runs between Crewe and Manchester as required, uses 5 sets if the train plan is revised to accommodate the new stock and service patterns. So effectively there probably are turns that don't require Intercity stock as much if you have just 4 sets on that route. With all of the sets visiting Canton at least a few times over a week there is also scope for overnighting one of the Swansea to Manchester sets at Holyhead instead of Crewe and the same in the morning by changing the timetable to fit that accordingly although that may then mean they don't serve Manchester on as many early and late trains for the sake of being able to swap 2 sets at Holyhead. Either way, with a blank canvas I can't see it being a problem deploying them.

 

[Whistler40145]

Absolutely no chance of a loco change at Crewe on the Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly services as they're routed via Wilmslow and can only access platforms 1, 5 and 6 at Crewe, this would cause a logistical nightmare for pathing

 

[Bletchleyite]

Must admit to being slightly surprised they didn't just go for all the Coast "long distance" trains (i.e. not Liv/Manc) being Mk4, but I'm sure for the long distance trips they'll be welcome.

 

[JonathanH]

Must admit to being slightly surprised they didn't just go for all the Coast "long distance" trains (i.e. not Liv/Manc) being Mk4, but I'm sure for the long distance trips they'll be welcome.

Isn't the problem that the demand away from the North Wales Coast towards Cardiff doesn't justify the extra capacity on all services and they can try to better target them where it is most needed?

 

[krus_aragon]

Absolutely no chance of a loco change at Crewe on the Cardiff Central to Manchester Piccadilly services as they're routed via Wilmslow and can only access platforms 1, 5 and 6 at Crewe, this would cause a logistical nightmare for pathing

It's worse than that, as I don't think there's access to the Shrewsbury line from Platform 1. The current layout makes a loco change on that route utterly impractical.

 

[Prestige15]

Regarding the MkIV sets and the Class 67s, is it intended for there to be a loco change to/from an electric one for the Crewe - Manchester section?

Should if that is the case, it would be a small step into banning the use of diesel traction at train shed type stations, of which Manchester Piccadilly is one assuming the ex Cardiff still runs via Wilmslow.

Class 93 would be a ideal choice without the need to change locos at crewe but i doubt tfw will get any of those

 

[tiptoptaff]

Class 93 would be a ideal choice without the need to change locos at crewe but i doubt tfw will get any of those

If they intended to use them they could arrange the contract like TPE and Chiltern did during the build phase. But I'm going to take a guess and say they're not interested in them.

 

[PHILIPE]

Class 93 would be a ideal choice without the need to change locos at crewe but i doubt tfw will get any of those

With the ongoing training requirements heavily delayed by COVID and trying to catch up with a backlog, the last thing TFW would require at the moment is more training

 

[craigybagel]

Class 93 would be a ideal choice without the need to change locos at crewe but i doubt tfw will get any of those

Not with only 1800hp on diesel they won't.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Not with only 1800hp on diesel they won't.

Top and tail with no DVT?? *ducks for cover*

 

[craigybagel]

Top and tail with no DVT?? *ducks for cover*

Nearly 11000 hp on electric - I think that would answer the question on whether or not there's enough space to hit the full 110mph between Crewe and Wilmslow

With regards to the discussions about first class. Reconfiguring the MKIV buffet from standard back to 1st would leave you no better off than how it was with the MKIIIs - and there have been times when there has been more demand for the service than available capacity.

I also have no doubt that there is a market for a first class Manchester - Cardiff service, and I've seen plenty of people with first class tickets despite the lack of such a facility on direct services.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Nearly 11000 hp on electric - I think that would answer the question on whether or not there's enough space to hit the full 110mph between Crewe and Wilmslow

With regards to the discussions about first class. Reconfiguring the MKIV buffet from standard back to 1st would leave you no better off than how it was with the MKIIIs - and there have been times when there has been more demand for the service than available capacity.

I also have no doubt that there is a market for a first class Manchester - Cardiff service, and I've seen plenty of people with first class tickets despite the lack of such a facility on direct services.

Reckon you could do it at a push

Definitely agree, there's an untapped market for first class between Cardiff and Manchester. I think the layout as planned will work quite well

 

[berneyarms]

Class 93 would be a ideal choice without the need to change locos at crewe but i doubt tfw will get any of those

There is no suggestion of any change in locomotive at Crewe in any publicity, so I think that this is a bit of a rabbit hole.

 

[aar0]

Could the DVT not be replaced by a 90 or 91 to provide OHL abilities where available? Surely not impossible to have the 67 and it communicate with each other.

 

[hexagon789]

Could the DVT not be replaced by a 90 or 91 to provide OHL abilities where available? Surely not impossible to have the 67 and it communicate with each other.

Hardly worthwhile for about 3/4 of an hour of journey under OLE out of over 4.5hrs plus the time spent making a loco-change. What one would ideally have is a fully bi-mode loco but none exist.

 

[XAM2175]

What one would ideally have is a fully bi-mode loco but none exist.

Well, to be pedantic, they do exist - Stadler have just delivered an order of EuroDual locomotives in Germany that deliver 6.15 MW on external AC and have a 2.8 MW onboard diesel (compared to a Class 67 developing 2.4 MW). There are just none that meet current emissions regulations and also fit into the British loading gauge.

 

[hexagon789]

Well, to be pedantic, they do exist - Stadler have just delivered an order of EuroDual locomotives in Germany that deliver 6.15 MW on external AC and have a 2.8 MW onboard diesel (compared to a Class 67 developing 2.4 MW). There are just none that meet current emissions regulations and also fit into the British loading gauge.

I should've added 'presently'. As in currently available to use. In the near future such an option may be worth exploring.

 

[aar0]

Possible? Probably - but at a large cost. And how much of that diesel you've saved by using electricity when under the wires (for about 50 minutes of a 4½ hour journey) are you going to waste dragging a heavy and effectively useless electric loco up and down the many stiff gradients of the Marches?

I think we're really getting in to the realms of fantasy here.

Hardly worthwhile for about 3/4 of an hour of journey under OLE out of over 4.5hrs plus the time spent making a loco-change. What one would ideally have is a fully bi-mode loco but none exist.

You both make good points! I suppose in the grand scheme of things a 67 is about as new (and hence clean running) a high speed diesel loco as you can get

 

[hexagon789]

You both make good points! I suppose in the grand scheme of things a 67 is about as new (and hence clean running) a high speed diesel loco as you can get

A 68 would be better. More efficient and accelerates faster.

 

[craigybagel]

I should've added 'presently'. As in currently available to use. In the near future such an option may be worth exploring.

Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if in 10 years time if TfW are still happy with the stock but want the 67s replacing it's an option that's looked at. Definitely not today though.

A 68 would be better. More efficient and accelerates faster.

True, but I don't believe there are any available at present? Whereas there is a glut of 67s available. Plus the training requirements to introduce these new loco hauled services at TfW are already huge - but on the drivers side if you changed the loco used you'd be increasing those needs even more.

As with my response above, it wouldn't surprise me if that was an option looked at further down the line however.

 

[hexagon789]

Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised if in 10 years time if TfW are still happy with the stock but want the 67s replacing it's an option that's looked at. Definitely not today though.

That's it essentially, worth looking at in the future but it's not for the present.

True, but I don't believe there are any available at present? Whereas there is a glut of 67s available. Plus the training requirements to introduce these new loco hauled services at TfW are already huge - but on the drivers side if you changed the loco used you'd be increasing those needs even more.

As with my response above, it wouldn't surprise me if that was an option looked at further down the line however.

Again, yes it's definitely not for the moment but if things were being looked at a few years down the line.

68s as I said would be better but I don't expect them to be available simply preferable. Even if the time comes within say 5 years to change from 67s I would expect a change to a dual-mode loco rather than 68s - though if TPE have already made such a change it may be worth looking at the 68s then if available as I believe the electrified mileage (assuming no changes) is greater for TPE than for the TfW service?

 

[6Gtraincrew]

I'm sure it mentioned the replacing of the 67's with 68's in the original franchise plan document. I seem to remember 2038 was the date.

 

[craigybagel]

That's it essentially, worth looking at in the future but it's not for the present.



Again, yes it's definitely not for the moment but if things were being looked at a few years down the line.

68s as I said would be better but I don't expect them to be available simply preferable. Even if the time comes within say 5 years to change from 67s I would expect a change to a dual-mode loco rather than 68s - though if TPE have already made such a change it may be worth looking at the 68s then if available as I believe the electrified mileage (assuming no changes) is greater for TPE than for the TfW service?

Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me if either the TPE or Chiltern 68s became available in the next few years and if so that could definitely be a game changer, they would be a lot more suitable for TfW than the 67s. But hopefully in the short term the availability of 67s and the headstart in crew training means we'll still see a successful introduction of loco hauled services to Manchester next year.

An introduction with 67s and then replacement by 68s worked well on Chiltern and hopefully that can be the same here too.

I'm sure it mentioned the replacing of the 67's with 68's in the original franchise plan document. I seem to remember 2038 was the date.

I believe you're right, although I think it was buried very deep inside.....