TfW Mk4 Diagrams?

ABB125

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Apologies if this has been answered anywhere else, I did have a quick look but couldn't find anything.

Is it yet know what the TfW Mk4 diagrams will be, and when from? (I think I read the May timetable change somewhere?)

Thanks very much.
 
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PHILIPE

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Apologies if this has been answered anywhere else, I did have a quick look but couldn't find anything.

Is it yet know what the TfW Mk4 diagrams will be, and when from? (I think I read the May timetable change somewhere?)

Thanks very much.

Nothing yet. Will be governed by training progress and COVID Timetable developments. TFW are hoping to start operating them in the Summer
 
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Caaardiff

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The first should be out at the beginning of June. Nothing obvious in current timetables though as it would be expected they will be running Cardiff - Holyhead but as yet it doesn't look like those direct services are returning, or are not yet released on sale.
 

ABB125

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The first should be out at the beginning of June. Nothing obvious in current timetables though as it would be expected they will be running Cardiff - Holyhead but as yet it doesn't look like those direct services are returning, or are not yet released on sale.
Ok, thanks.
 

CW2

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Any offers as to which depots will be responsible for overnight stabling and servicing? I'm particularly interested in Crewe - so I'm trying to second guess whether there will be early morning services from Crewe and late evening services to Crewe as part of the Mk4 diagrams.
 

PHILIPE

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Any offers as to which depots will be responsible for overnight stabling and servicing? I'm particularly interested in Crewe - so I'm trying to second guess whether there will be early morning services from Crewe and late evening services to Crewe as part of the Mk4 diagrams.

Until we know more Timetable details it would be difficult to speculate. Holyhead and Canton for certain.
 

Bikeman78

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Apologies if this has been answered anywhere else, I did have a quick look but couldn't find anything.

Is it yet know what the TfW Mk4 diagrams will be, and when from? (I think I read the May timetable change somewhere?)

Thanks very much.
Pre Covid the idea was two diagrams (see approximate times below), one stabling in Cardiff and the other at Holyhead. I'd imagine that is still ultimately the plan. The sets need to rotate for maintenance. It would be possible to lose the 0700 and 1650 runs and swap one with the spare set during the Canton layover. Note I have no idea when the services might start. Keep an eye on RTT.

0532 HHD-CDF
1120 CDF-HHD
1650 HHD-CDF

0700 CDF-HHD
1130 HHD-CDF
1715 CDF-HHD
 

craigybagel

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Any offers as to which depots will be responsible for overnight stabling and servicing? I'm particularly interested in Crewe - so I'm trying to second guess whether there will be early morning services from Crewe and late evening services to Crewe as part of the Mk4 diagrams.
Very little likelihood of Crewe being used in the short term. There's a set based there at present for training Crewe drivers and Shrewsbury guards but with the originally planned services 2 sets will overnight in Canton (one being the spare set) and the 3rd in Holyhead. The last I heard this plan hadn't changed.

If the heavily rumoured plan to acquire further MKIV sets goes ahead however, I think it almost certain at least one set will stable in Crewe.

Pre Covid the idea was two diagrams (see approximate times below), one stabling in Cardiff and the other at Holyhead. I'd imagine that is still ultimately the plan. The sets need to rotate for maintenance. It would be possible to lose the 0700 and 1650 runs and swap one with the spare set during the Canton layover. Note I have no idea when the services might start. Keep an eye on RTT.

0532 HHD-CDF
1120 CDF-HHD
1650 HHD-CDF

0700 CDF-HHD
1130 HHD-CDF
1715 CDF-HHD
Swapping the sets is easy enough with two sets on Canton every night, and with the Holyhead overnighter changing alternating each day, I'm not sure why you'd need to lose a trip to make it happen?
 

43096

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If the heavily rumoured plan to acquire further MKIV sets goes ahead however, I think it almost certain at least one set will stable in Crewe.
There is no rumour about it. TfW have acquired 7 x 5+DVT sets.
 

ABB125

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There is no rumour about it. TfW have acquired 7 x 5+DVT sets.
I don't recall reading that in any magazines, but of course that doesn't mean it hasn't happened! Have they also bought an extra three vehicles to extend the current 4-car rakes? I'm guessing that this is the Grand Central sets, plus some from storage?
 

43096

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I don't recall reading that in any magazines, but of course that doesn't mean it hasn't happened! Have they also bought an extra three vehicles to extend the current 4-car rakes? I'm guessing that this is the Grand Central sets, plus some from storage?
Yes, it’s the three existing sets, plus the four GC sets, plus three TODs to bring the three existing sets to the same formation and three spare vehicles. Ownership has transferred on the national vehicle register.
 

ABB125

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Yes, it’s the three existing sets, plus the four GC sets, plus three TODs to bring the three existing sets to the same formation and three spare vehicles. Ownership has transferred on the national vehicle register.
The GC sets are 6-car aren't they? Doesn't that leave four spare vehicles, if they're being reduced to 5-car?
 

craigybagel

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There is no rumour about it. TfW have acquired 7 x 5+DVT sets.

Yes, it’s the three existing sets, plus the four GC sets, plus three TODs to bring the three existing sets to the same formation and three spare vehicles. Ownership has transferred on the national vehicle register.
I was going to ask for a source but the national vehicle register is pretty comprehensive. I was wary of posting about the extra MKIVs until there was a publicly accessible source since TfW haven't made any official announcements as yet and I didn't want to be in breach of any social media rules.
 

Envoy

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Pre Covid the idea was two diagrams (see approximate times below), one stabling in Cardiff and the other at Holyhead. I'd imagine that is still ultimately the plan. The sets need to rotate for maintenance. It would be possible to lose the 0700 and 1650 runs and swap one with the spare set during the Canton layover. Note I have no idea when the services might start. Keep an eye on RTT.

0532 HHD-CDF
1120 CDF-HHD
1650 HHD-CDF

0700 CDF-HHD
1130 HHD-CDF
1715 CDF-HHD
Looking at those schedules - if they do indeed end up as the services, they are not exactly user friendly for capturing the main tourist market for day trips between the 2 major centres where tourists and locals might want to do a day trip return = Cardiff & Chester. 7am from Cardiff is not going to get many leisure travellers wanting to start so early and I guess the 5.32am from Holyhead will also be rather early when departing southward from Chester. Only the 17.15 from Cardiff seems too be an ideal time for the leisure travellers doing a day trip return.

Of course, the services in the middle of the day are fine for those making a one way journey when presumably the fares will be lower - that’s assuming that one way tickets are not priced at £1 less than the returns!
 

el_lnrd

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in RTT for September (for example here is 29/09/2021) there are some schedules for loco-hauled 100mph 140T load services. All services have different stop patterns)
Holyhead -> Cardiff
1V91 05:33-09:58 (Direct Wrexham - Shrewsbury)
1V96 11:33-16:15 (No direct stretch)
1V98 16:51-20:47 (Direct Llandudno Junction - Chester)
Cardiff -> Holyhead
1W91 06:45-11:20 (Direct Chester-Llandudno Junction)
1W93 11:22-16:20 (No direct stretch)
1W96 17:16-21:42 (Direct Shrewsbury-Wrexham)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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So that's either adding more LHCS services to the Holyhead-Cardiff route, and/or using them on West Wales-Manchester?
 

craigybagel

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Looking at those schedules - if they do indeed end up as the services, they are not exactly user friendly for capturing the main tourist market for day trips between the 2 major centres where tourists and locals might want to do a day trip return = Cardiff & Chester. 7am from Cardiff is not going to get many leisure travellers wanting to start so early and I guess the 5.32am from Holyhead will also be rather early when departing southward from Chester. Only the 17.15 from Cardiff seems too be an ideal time for the leisure travellers doing a day trip return.

Of course, the services in the middle of the day are fine for those making a one way journey when presumably the fares will be lower - that’s assuming that one way tickets are not priced at £1 less than the returns!
To be fair, I'm not sure that tourists were ever the number one target for this service. That said, the middle of the day services should be a big bonus for leisure travel over the old one round trip per day timetable.
So that's either adding more LHCS services to the Holyhead-Cardiff route, and/or using them on West Wales-Manchester?
Those are pretty much the only routes they can be used on. But given TfW still haven't publicly confirmed the acquisition of the extra sets don't expect them to announce where they're going any time soon either. Whichever option they go with is going to require a lot of training so it'll be a while before any thing happens.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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I reckon the normal (pre-Covid) timetable needed 5 units for the 2-hourly Holyhead-Cardiff (including Gerald).
So if they have 6 units available (from a fleet of 7) there will be spare capacity for other routes, or (eg) extensions west of Cardiff.
Complicated by the interworking of 197s on all the main routes, and based at Chester.
Too much capacity is a nice problem to have, though, for once.
The current trains (bar Gerald) are 2/3-car, while the Mk4 sets will presumably be 4 standard (plus 1st?), which sounds like overkill for that route off-peak.
 

CW2

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Hmm - interesting! It seemed almost too obvious for TfW to go for the surplus Mk4s, so I'm both pleased and mildly surprised that it actually seems to be happening.
 
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krus_aragon

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I reckon the normal (pre-Covid) timetable needed 5 units for the 2-hourly Holyhead-Cardiff (including Gerald).
I've had a little dig through the 19/20 timetable, and the exact timetable as implemented needed just over 5 diagrams. A purely 2-hourly service could be done with 5, but somme odd intervals (like 0430 and 0530 departures from Holyhead both going to Cardiff) mean you'd need an extra rake.

Mind you, if you're doing a full recast anyway...
 

craigybagel

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Mind you, if you're doing a full recast anyway...
I think that's an important fact that people often forget, both when discussing the MKIVs and even more so with the 197s. People are making assumptions over what can happen based on the old timetable, when things may be very different after the recast.
 

Bikeman78

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Swapping the sets is easy enough with two sets on Canton every night, and with the Holyhead overnighter changing alternating each day, I'm not sure why you'd need to lose a trip to make it happen?
I was thinking in terms of train crew availability, or potential lack of crew.
 

craigybagel

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I was thinking in terms of train crew availability, or potential lack of crew.
Ah fair enough.

There's a plan being worked on for it's introduction that will take into account the limited numbers who sign it at present.
 

47827

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Assuming 2 sets by later this summer/year and all the extra sets in use within say 18 months if no prohibitive training hurdles/further covid setbacks:

There were already some tweaks to the timetable for the planned intro of 3 hauled services each way from what I recall. So an extra 3 or 4 sets in use on a weekday would likely see some more noticeable changes to schedules (and the timetable) as well as moving station stops over at least Anglesey onto alternative trains and I imagine Holyhead would get the most active sets overnight with perhaps 1 in Crewe (maybe) and the remainder in Cardiff including the spare/s. I'd say it would be hard to not use at least 3 or 4 of them at weekends too without running lots of ECS moves or splitting pairs of units up. The previous plan was just 2 sets out Monday to Friday and spare at weekends or used occasionally for crowd busters on busy seasonal dates/sports extras. It's the fact so many sets would probably land up at Holyhead even Sundays with a handful of spare units in most areas you would probably see a few services each way on their normal routes. At the moment, for instance, I think without covid timetables there are usually 2 Holyhead to Cardiff trains on a Sunday each way and several which only run to Crewe currently.

All very interesting compared to the normal stuff, even if I've no desire to go on them personally!
 

craigybagel

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Assuming 2 sets by later this summer/year and all the extra sets in use within say 18 months if no prohibitive training hurdles/further covid setbacks:

There were already some tweaks to the timetable for the planned intro of 3 hauled services each way from what I recall. So an extra 3 or 4 sets in use on a weekday would likely see some more noticeable changes to schedules (and the timetable) as well as moving station stops over at least Anglesey onto alternative trains and I imagine Holyhead would get the most active sets overnight with perhaps 1 in Crewe (maybe) and the remainder in Cardiff including the spare/s. I'd say it would be hard to not use at least 3 or 4 of them at weekends too without running lots of ECS moves or splitting pairs of units up. The previous plan was just 2 sets out Monday to Friday and spare at weekends or used occasionally for crowd busters on busy seasonal dates/sports extras. It's the fact so many sets would probably land up at Holyhead even Sundays with a handful of spare units in most areas you would probably see a few services each way on their normal routes. At the moment, for instance, I think without covid timetables there are usually 2 Holyhead to Cardiff trains on a Sunday each way and several which only run to Crewe currently.

All very interesting compared to the normal stuff, even if I've no desire to go on them personally!
As I mentioned earlier, there was always going to be a massive recast anyway. All that's changed with the arrival of the extra sets is that the planners have some extra trains to play with (albeit trains that are a little more restrictive than the CAF units in terms of where they can be used).

Sunday services are expected to be dramatically increased so I would be very surprised if the current (non Covid) 2 per day Cardiff - Holyhead Sunday service won't be increased, regardless of whether or not they extra MKIVs go on that route. There won't be any point in acquiring these extra sets if they don't get used on weekends; without doing that, they won't be releasing units for other routes.
 

wobman

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The plan is for the extra sets to be used Cardiff to Manchester eventually, then there's less extra traincrew training needed.
Cardiff & Crewe drivers can cover that work, there's no plans for More depots learning them but plans can change.
 

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