sprinterguy
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Precisely!
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TFW Pacer withdrawals
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sprinterguy
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They are receiving CAF Civity class 195 equivalents in large numbers. 26 x 3-car and 51 x 2-car units.
Though they will directly replace mostly the class 158s and 175s, after the Pacers have gone.
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krus_aragon
Established Member
TfW are being cleverer than you might think by ordering the 230s.
Firstly, their use on Chester-Crewe and the Conwy Valley is just a temporary arrangement to help with PRM modifications to the 150/8 fleet. (Likewise, the forthcoming use of 170s on Maesteg services isn't permanent.) Their real purpose if for the Borderlands line (Wrexham-Bidston).
There is a long-standing aspiration to make the Borderlands service more attractive: its southern portion is in a well-populated area, but the low frequency and lack of through services to Liverpool and Birkenhead are suppressing demand. Enough 230s have been ordered to double the frequency to Bidston, which should hopefully stimulate passenger numbers. We'll know after a few years of operation whether that's happening or not.
Through running to Liverpool is more problematic. You could run a diesel train as far as Birkenhead (or James St), but diesel trains aren't allowed along the Liverpool loop line. So you'd have to use either electric (if you electrify to Wrexham) or bi-mode trains to run Wrexham-Birkenhead-Liverpool services. Either one will be a significant investment to make. Thankfully, the 2tph service with the 230s will be able to show whether there is a business case for doing so.
The 230s are, as you say, "new old stock", and will have a shorter working life than something brand-new like the 195s you suggested. But given that the aspiration is to replace them with electric/bi-mode stock (if the passenger numbers add up) within ten years or so, that shorter lifespan dovetails quite nicely.
It's similar to the use of second-hand EMUs for new electrification projects: use cheaper rolling stock to improve the service and tempt passengers on-board, then you've got the numbers to justify buying new/longer/fancy rolling stock for the line.
anamyd
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The Welsh Civity DMUs have TOPS numbers now...? They are similar to the WMT 196s, but are they confirmed as 196s...?
sprinterguy
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Good point, I've jumped the gun on that one admittedly - I've used the "196" classification as shorthand in my own records, and forgot that it's not yet confirmed. Minor edit made!
anamyd
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Before the turn of the new decade, if anything more Pacers are wanted to join the fleet temporarily (thought to be Northern's 13x 2-car 144s as they come off-lease) to cover for PRM modifications to the 150/2s (as of writing this, only 285 and 284 have been done meaning 34 of the 36 haven't). The 153s will increase in number from 8 to 13 thanks to the acquisition of GWR's last 5, again on a temporary basis.
By the turn of the new decade, all 30 TfW Valleys Pacers will be directly replaced by 26 units totalling more capacity in the form of 9x 4-car 769s converted from 319/0s, and a temporary internal cascade of 17x 150/2s (which are in the process of being PRM modified) made surplus from other routes which will have newer old trains in the form of all 12 by-then ex-Greater Anglia 170/2s (8x 3-cars and 2x 2-cars) and the 5x 3-car 230s. All then-13 TfW 153s and any ex-Northern Pacers will leave the fleet. At this point, in terms of the multiple unit trains there will be a carriage space increase of 642m compared to the original ATW inherited fleet. The Class 67 locomotives will have their Mark 3 carriages and Mark 3 DVTs replaced by 12x Mark 4 carriages and 3x Mark 4 DVTs coming off-lease from LNER.
As mentioned by sprinterguy, 77 brand new CAF Civity DMUs will at least completely replace all 27x 175s and all 24x TfW 158s around 2022-2023. All TfW 150/2s will be replaced by 35x Stadler FLIRTs (11x 4-car DEMUs, 7x 3-car TMUs and 17x 4-car TMUs) as well as 36x 3-car Stadler Citylink tram-trains in 2023.
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jamesst
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It sounds like it'll be something of a miracle If the new Liverpool-Chester service does actually start in May the way things are going
Just got off the phone to a good mate at TFW,he says the Halton curve driver training services operate daily (Sunday's excepted),3 round trips Chester to Liverpool.
This service operates with a different set each day and has been passed for 150/158 And 175s.
The new service will begin as planned in May but don't expect any 230s as there is no introduction dates for those on any of their routes atm.
The third loco hauled set is still in the pipeline,but my friend suggests only when mk4s become available.
TFW will be replacing mk3s for mk4s using 67s and DVT's
Regarding delivery dates and introduction,he has had no word of 230s and 769s entering service atm.
Also,he too has heard that some 144s are a plan B for valley lines if these get released early enough!
This service operates with a different set each day and has been passed for 150/158 And 175s.
The new service will begin as planned in May but don't expect any 230s as there is no introduction dates for those on any of their routes atm.
The third loco hauled set is still in the pipeline,but my friend suggests only when mk4s become available.
TFW will be replacing mk3s for mk4s using 67s and DVT's
Regarding delivery dates and introduction,he has had no word of 230s and 769s entering service atm.
Also,he too has heard that some 144s are a plan B for valley lines if these get released early enough!
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
The Halton Curve thread is here, mate:-
www.railforums.co.uk/threads/halton-curve-upgrade-is-on.102873/page-29
IamTrainsYT
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More pacers for wales next week
As said in the screenshot above there are 5 class 142s heading down from northern to TFW next week, these are 142012,142014,142019,142046,142049
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PHILIPE
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Already posted and further discussion here;
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-stock-to-tfw-wales-and-borders.196081/page-2 Discussion starts at Post #57
Anonymous10
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I know this is the wrong thread but could anyone inform me why Pacers are back on the Pembroke Dock line
Probably short on 150s
Nick Ashwell
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Anything can work any diagram until the end of the moneth
Yeah like 153s
Anonymous10
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I know prm isn't till next month it just surprised me to see them haven't in a few years and with them being due to go out next year ??????
Sprinters has a couple years yet and most units are PRM by now
Anonymous10
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Ah I thought most trains were 2020
Someone did post on here when the units was going
anamyd
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The Pacers were never intended to be PRM modified because they were expected to have been withdrawn by now, displaced by the 769s and 230s and the rest of the 170s, which would've all been PRM compliant. Only the 158s have all been PRM modified on time; whereas some 150s/153s haven't because the work started months / years after it should've done. All three Pacer operators (TfW, Northern and GWR) will continue to operate their Pacers and other non-compliant units until "mid-2020" under a derogation from law, because of late delivery of replacement ones. It was always planned with TfW that the Pacers would be withdrawn by 2020, and then the 150s/153s/158s/175s/769s would be withdrawn in 2022-23, replaced by 148 brand new units.
The_Train
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Is there any definitive (or if not definitive, at least planned as of today) date for the beginning of withdrawal of the TfW pacers?
PHILIPE
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Next question. When will the 769s be in service ?
The_Train
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I suppose the 2 questions are heavily linked?
I really just want to know if I need to be rushing back down to Cardiff to try and chalk off the remaining pacers I need. I was thinking of trying to get down this week but ticket prices are not favouring me (unsurprisingly) and can easily save £20+ if I wait a few weeks
Bob Price
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There is a thread on this. There are three here with one more supposed to have arrived today. However not one has yet turned a wheel on the network. They need testing and drivers / guards trained before they enter service.
A long way of saying, don't hold your breath
A long way of saying, don't hold your breath
Bob Price
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Cardiff123
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Rushing to Cardiff this week to see a TfW Pacer? Pacers will be rolling around South Wales until at least June/JulyI suppose the 2 questions are heavily linked?
I really just want to know if I need to be rushing back down to Cardiff to try and chalk off the remaining pacers I need. I was thinking of trying to get down this week but ticket prices are not favouring me (unsurprisingly) and can easily save £20+ if I wait a few weeks
There is no planned date for their withdrawal and TfW bosses have even suggested asking for extensions to the granted PRM derogations if needed, that currently expire in July.
So no need to panic.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
I suppose the 2 questions are heavily linked?
I really just want to know if I need to be rushing back down to Cardiff to try and chalk off the remaining pacers I need. I was thinking of trying to get down this week but ticket prices are not favouring me (unsurprisingly) and can easily save £20+ if I wait a few weeks
They won't be going any time yet and dispensation has been granted until 31 July. As well as the 769s TFW have been allocated 9 x 153s from GA and EMR but not all have yet entered service, the purpose of these to help cover for the 769s. The message coming through is that TFW want rid of the Pacers ASAP so it is difficult to say when the withdrawals, which will be progressive, will actually start. It might be preferable to pop down to Cardiff as we might discover one day their departure has started.
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