TfW revenue block for rail replacement buses

[mrmartin]

This is a first. At Cardiff central today (maybe always, rarely get RRB) there was a revenue block for people getting off rail replacement buses. It was incredibly well staffed (more staff checking tickets than got off my bus at least).

Seems a bit of a joke charging people full price for a rail replacement bus. I sort of thought there was an unwritten rule they don't enforce ticketing checks on RRBs given how poor the journey times are compared to the normal service and the complexity of doing it.

 

[Lewisham2221]

At a guess, because it's a huge chunk of the Valleys services not running and therefore most journeys will be entirely by RRB. In many other cases, most people's journeys will still include a portion of travel by train where they will have to pass through a ticket barrier or encounter an on-board check.

As an example, bus fare on the T4 bus Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff is £7.60 single, the rail fare is £8.70 return, so it's hardly like people are being overcharged.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This is a first. At Cardiff central today (maybe always, rarely get RRB) there was a revenue block for people getting off rail replacement buses. It was incredibly well staffed (more staff checking tickets than got off my bus at least).

Seems a bit of a joke charging people full price for a rail replacement bus. I sort of thought there was an unwritten rule they don't enforce ticketing checks on RRBs given how poor the journey times are compared to the normal service and the complexity of doing it.

It's a criminal offence to seek to intentionally avoid payment of a service, just because it's a bus doesn't mean it's free. The costs of buses and drivers isn't free. The legislation is Section 11 Fraud Act 2006 rather than rail specific laws.

Ticket checking on buses by the drivers is highly variable, but as has been well discussed on this forum many times, revenue protection inspectors do carry out stings on buses, especially when the engineering work is long term or wide ranging.

CrossCountry, Chiltern and Transport for Wales are particularly hot - because they outsource to Transport Investigation Limited who provide staff on a whim and are paid partly by their results.

Transport for Wales has also been fairly generous with discounts in the past for major engineering works previously, recognising the disruption. I'm not sure what arrangements apply today, but I suppose it depends on what engineering work is actually taking place.

50% off travel on TfW services for residents during Treherbert Line transformation

Residents who live between Trehafod and Treherbert railway stations can pick up a railcard offering a 50% discount on TfW services on the Treherbert line while a major part of the South Wales Metro is being built.

news.tfw.wales

50% off travel on TfW services for residents during Treherbert Line transformation

 

[mrmartin]

Spouting the fraud act for not having a ticket for boarding a RRB bus for £4 , I've heard it all on RUK forums now. I had no intention to avoid the fare, the bus stop was not that close to the ticket machines and to be honest I wasn't sure if it would turn up - it was over 20 minutes late (on top of the fact the journey time was twice what it normally is). I've bought many tickets for RRB before (outside of Wales) - and never once had them checked.

This wasn't a valley lines service fwiw, it was a Maesteg line service.

This is yet another exhibit of piss poor customer friendliness from the railway. If they want to enforce fares on RRBs, fine, but start putting that on posters. And have people selling tickets before you get on. It is unacceptable to then catch people out with revenue blocks at the end when most places don't do any checks regardless of what legislation applies.

I still think it is a joke charging fares for such badly delayed journeys. If this was a "normal" service it would be 100% delay repay so I don't see how this is any different from a passenger perspective.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Spouting the fraud act for not having a ticket for boarding a RRB bus for £4 , I've heard it all on RUK forums now. I had no intention to avoid the fare, the bus stop was not that close to the ticket machines and to be honest I wasn't sure if it would turn up - it was over 20 minutes late (on top of the fact the journey time was twice what it normally is). I've bought many tickets for RRB before (outside of Wales) - and never once had them checked.

This wasn't a valley lines service fwiw, it was a Maesteg line service.

This is yet another exhibit of piss poor customer friendliness from the railway. If they want to enforce fares on RRBs, fine, but start putting that on posters. And have people selling tickets before you get on. It is unacceptable to then catch people out with revenue blocks at the end when most places don't do any checks regardless of what legislation applies.

I still think it is a joke charging fares for such badly delayed journeys. If this was a "normal" service it would be 100% delay repay so I don't see how this is any different from a passenger perspective.

It makes no difference if the fare is 50p or £500 - quite why you think the amount matters I'm unsure. If someone is intentionally trying to avoid paying their fare, then it's fair game. You seem to think that simply because you don't like the service on offer, you shouldn't have to pay the fare due and are affronted by the fact you've been asked to pay!

You shouldn't need to put that on posters - it's clearly not a free service. Most genuine, honest passengers would seek to pay their fare. They certainly wouldn't mind being stopped at the end of their journey and being asked to pay for the travel they've just undertaken.

Clearly your journey hasn't been delayed. They publish a timetable, tells you there's a bus and has timings attached to it. It may take longer than a train, but that's not a delay. If the bus is delayed, you can claim delay repay compensation in the normal way. If you don't like the timetable on offer, don't travel with TfW, or find a different way you are happy with. If you decide to take what TfW is offering, then you accept the price of that.

 

[Simon75]

Similar thread

Rail replacement buses... not checking tickets

I've used a few rail replacement buses in the last year,but very few ask to see tickets, is there a reason behind it ?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[boiledbeans2]

In my opinion, if you managed to get away with not paying for the RRB, then good for you. But if they ask for the full single fare at the end of the journey, I would just pay up. At least the RPIs were reasonable and didn't ask for a penalty fare, or even worse, report for prosecution!

 

[AlterEgo]

The RPIs aren’t there because of some part of the Fraud Act.

They are surely just there to sell people tickets knowing many people won’t have bought one beforehand.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The RPIs aren’t there because of some part of the Fraud Act.

They are surely just there to sell people tickets knowing many people won’t have bought one beforehand.

They have certainly been reporting some passengers who have failed to pay and who demonstrate intent - (e.g. because they don't have sufficient money).

Clearly they're not there because of the Fraud Act, I was simply pointing out that the original poster ought to be mindful of that - as seemingly if he hadn't of been stopped, he had absolutely no intention of paying for what he sees as a slower, inferior service, which is clearly, Section 11 Fraud.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Spouting the fraud act for not having a ticket for boarding a RRB bus for £4 , I've heard it all on RUK forums now. I had no intention to avoid the fare, the bus stop was not that close to the ticket machines and to be honest I wasn't sure if it would turn up - it was over 20 minutes late (on top of the fact the journey time was twice what it normally is). I've bought many tickets for RRB before (outside of Wales) - and never once had them checked.

This wasn't a valley lines service fwiw, it was a Maesteg line service.

This is yet another exhibit of piss poor customer friendliness from the railway. If they want to enforce fares on RRBs, fine, but start putting that on posters. And have people selling tickets before you get on. It is unacceptable to then catch people out with revenue blocks at the end when most places don't do any checks regardless of what legislation applies.

I still think it is a joke charging fares for such badly delayed journeys. If this was a "normal" service it would be 100% delay repay so I don't see how this is any different from a passenger perspective.

Did they just sell you a ticket? Or did they penalty fare you? Or report you for prosecution?

 

[azOOOOOma]

Just wondering. If I go into a supermarket and steal a bottle of wine, should I keep the value below a certain amount, or is it ok to keep to keep stealing my favourite at £40 a bottle?

Spouting the fraud act for not having a ticket for boarding a RRB bus for £4 , I've heard it all on RUK forums now. I had no intention to avoid the fare, the bus stop was not that close to the ticket machines and to be honest I wasn't sure if it would turn up - it was over 20 minutes late (on top of the fact the journey time was twice what it normally is). I've bought many tickets for RRB before (outside of Wales) - and never once had them checked.

This wasn't a valley lines service fwiw, it was a Maesteg line service.

This is yet another exhibit of piss poor customer friendliness from the railway. If they want to enforce fares on RRBs, fine, but start putting that on posters. And have people selling tickets before you get on. It is unacceptable to then catch people out with revenue blocks at the end when most places don't do any checks regardless of what legislation applies.

I still think it is a joke charging fares for such badly delayed journeys. If this was a "normal" service it would be 100% delay repay so I don't see how this is any different from a passenger perspective.

 

[43066]

Spouting the fraud act for not having a ticket for boarding a RRB bus for £4 ,

£4 here or there adds up to the £250m in lost revenue the railway suffers each year, which has to be recouped from somewhere.

This is yet another exhibit of piss poor customer friendliness from the railway. If they want to enforce fares on RRBs, fine, but start putting that on posters. And have people selling tickets before you get on. It is unacceptable to then catch people out with revenue blocks at the end when most places don't do any checks regardless of what legislation applies.

Why does it make any difference whether the service is provided on buses or trains? If you don’t want to use the service, you don’t have to. What you shouldn’t do (although many get away with doing so) is use it and not pay for it. Why would any organisation want to be “friendly” to people who do that?

 

[yorkie]

Just wondering. If I go into a supermarket and steal a bottle of wine, should I keep the value below a certain amount, or is it ok to keep to keep stealing my favourite at £40 a bottle?

This is a false equivalence fallacy.

If anyone is going to make supermarket analogies, a bit more effort should go into them, to make the comparisons at least vaguely comparable!

 

[Tetchytyke]

If I go into a supermarket

I switched off when that boring old fallacious cliche got rolled out.

This is yet another exhibit of piss poor customer friendliness from the railway. If they want to enforce fares on RRBs, fine, but start putting that on posters.

I disagree with that. I don't think there is anything wrong with the TOC putting staff in place to make sure everyone has had an opportunity to buy a ticket. As you note, it's often difficult to buy tickets in advance when RRBs are in place- the stops are often not near the station- so giving people the opportunity to buy is entirely reasonable.

If they started dishing out Penalty Fares and irregularity reports to everyone without a ticket then my opinion would differ. But I see nothing wrong in what you say has happened.

I still think it is a joke charging fares for such badly delayed journeys. If this was a "normal" service it would be 100% delay repay so I don't see how this is any different from a passenger perspective.

You obviously can't claim Delay Repay against the train timetable but you can against the bus timetable. If the RRB arrived later than scheduled then Delay Repay will become payable if the delay meets the threshold.

 

[AlterEgo]

Where do the rail replacement buses drop off at Cardiff Central? I thought they were dropping off at Dumphries Place.

 

[pwharley]

Where do the rail replacement buses drop off at Cardiff Central? I thought they were dropping off at Dumphries Place.

The south car park.

 

[miklcct]

This is a first. At Cardiff central today (maybe always, rarely get RRB) there was a revenue block for people getting off rail replacement buses. It was incredibly well staffed (more staff checking tickets than got off my bus at least).

Seems a bit of a joke charging people full price for a rail replacement bus. I sort of thought there was an unwritten rule they don't enforce ticketing checks on RRBs given how poor the journey times are compared to the normal service and the complexity of doing it.

How about those using PAYG? Are they effectively free like in London, or is there equipment set up to charge the correct PAYG fare for the station?

 

[richw]

Ticket checking on buses by the drivers is highly variable, but as has been well discussed on this forum many times, revenue protection inspectors do carry out stings on buses, especially when the engineering work is long term or wide ranging.

Having driven rail replacement buses, we were specifically told not to check tickets as we are not trained in railway ticketing and their validity.

 

[gray1404]

I certainly would never give my details for the purpose of a penalty fair or being reported for prosecution when getting off a rail replacement bus. There is no provision for them to demand details in such circumstances as you have not traveled by train.

I would also refuse any payment if I was not given a discounted for i.e any off-peak fare that was applicable and my Railcard discount. Again there is no provision for them not to offer such a discount as I have not alighted from a train.

If the RRB is departing from a station then perhaps there is a moral argument but many of the TfW RRBs depart well away from the road at the train station. It is bad enough that they provide a single TVM on only one platform at many stations.

 

[etr221]

The Maesteg line mentioned as having an RRB is one which has PAYG. My view is that if I was intending to use PAYG, then if an RRB is involved, that should not increase what I should be paying, taking account of capping and the like.

As PAYG (in its various forms) becomes more common then how it is to work in connection with RRBs is going to become an increasing issue, and as PAYG schemes are becoming Pay After You've Gone, with capping and the like, ever more complex. The London de facto approach of not charging - as not all of the relevant buses have readers as a starting point - may not be fair, but does have the advantage of simplicity and avoiding the need to sort out what the charge should have been and making appropriate adjustment.

 

[Starmill]

Having driven rail replacement buses, we were specifically told not to check tickets as we are not trained in railway ticketing and their validity.

This is by far the most common solution in use.

Lots of operators check tickets on replacement buses using their own or their usual revenue staff though. I've had it many times at Blackpool North for example. GWR have allegedly even issued unpaid fares notices to people on buses.

 

[etr221]

If the RRB is departing from a station then perhaps there is a moral argument but many of the TfW RRBs depart well away from the road at the train station. It is bad enough that they provide a single TVM on only one platform at many stations.

If the RRB stop is not adjacent to the station, what is the position (both practically and in law) over there being a facility to buy a ticket?

Buy via an App then?

There is neither any requirement to have an App, or the means to have one....

 

[richw]

This is by far the most common solution in use.

Lots of operators check tickets on replacement buses using their own or their usual revenue staff though. I've had it many times at Blackpool North for example. GWR have allegedly even issued unpaid fares notices to people on buses.

If we check tickets and incorrectly say ok to something we don’t understand, it creates a problem should revenue do a block. “the bus driver did a check and said my ticket was ok”

I’ve only done GWR replacement and pretty sure it was either in the paperwork, or we were verbally told be the duty control not to check.

 

[Starmill]

If we check tickets and incorrectly say ok to something we don’t understand, it creates a problem should revenue do a block. “the bus driver did a check and said my ticket was ok”

I’ve only done GWR replacement and pretty sure it was either in the paperwork, or we were verbally told be the duty control not to check.

Exactly. Equally there was a report of a customer being turned away incorrectly by a bus driver working on a contract for WMT, which obviously is something they'd be very keen to avoid happening because it creates the inevitable complaints which go to them to deal with, not the bus operator, and possible liability for paying damages.

 

[ianBR]

Perhaps we should all start claiming delay repay for rail replacement buses that are late then if the rail companies think rail regulations apply to their shoddy replacement bus services.

A bus is not a train in law and there are no facilities to buy tickets at many of the stops. Just refuse to give any details.

 

[richw]

Perhaps we should all start claiming delay repay for rail replacement buses that are late then if the rail companies think rail regulations apply to their shoddy replacement bus services.

A bus is not a train in law and there are no facilities to buy tickets at many of the stops. Just refuse to give any details.

At many locations the RRB pick up and drop off outside of the railway premises too so I wonder if that affects the bylaws and jurisdiction

 

[WelshBluebird]

Perhaps we should all start claiming delay repay for rail replacement buses that are late then if the rail companies think rail regulations apply to their shoddy replacement bus services.

I mean if the bus is late compared to the timetable then you absolutely should be claiming delay repay, why wouldn't you?

The potential grey area is where you try to claim for the bus being on time but late compared to the regular train - and that depends on what the timetable was when you bought your tickets.

 

[Starmill]

As long as you have clear evidence of the timetable that applied when you booked I don't think there's any reason not to claim if you're then late.

 

[RJ]

It’s not a new thing, revenue are often at Cardiff Central, Pontypridd and Radyr.

Us operators are specifically told not to check passengers’ tickets. People who ask if they need to pay, I just say the driver doesn’t check tickets and tell them to take a seat.

 

[Starmill]

I certainly would never give my details for the purpose of a penalty fair or being reported for prosecution when getting off a rail replacement bus. There is no provision for them to demand details in such circumstances as you have not traveled by train.

I would also refuse any payment if I was not given a discounted for i.e any off-peak fare that was applicable and my Railcard discount. Again there is no provision for them not to offer such a discount as I have not alighted from a train.

If the RRB is departing from a station then perhaps there is a moral argument but many of the TfW RRBs depart well away from the road at the train station. It is bad enough that they provide a single TVM on only one platform at many stations.

I think there is slightly more than a moral argument that it's obligatory to pay the correct fare when travelling by replacement bus. However the option of Penalty Fares and so forth aren't available if a train isn't involved as the word train is specified in the Regulation. The Byelaws not relating to trains themselves may still apply.