TFW - Short fare - Cardiff Station - 3/11/18

[LexMoran]

Caught the train to Cardiff with a friend to watch Cardiff Vs Leicester game this weekend .


(I live in Bristol but am originally from Newport so hopefully provides a bit of context below .)

Caught the train in the morning from Bristol parkway station – there were no barriers in operation as the line to go to South Wales was snaking out of the door into the carpark due to lots of people on the way over for the rugby . All the traffic for Newport/Cardiff was then ushered onto trains with no opportunity to purchase a ticket from a self service machine or staff member before we boarded . I actually asked a staff member at parkway about getting a ticket they said you can pay when you get to Cardiff .


Then proceeded to arrive in Cardiff central and seek out someone for unpaid fares , at which point I made my error and advised I had come from Newport when asked rather than Bristol parkway which when questioned by the ticket lady about the barriers I admitted I made a mistake and said it was in fact parkway I’d travelled from ( I have recently been taking very strong prescription tablets to deal with recent hearing loss and Neuropathical pain – which do cause confusion as a side effect’) .


At this point a revenue protection officer advised that if I admitted I’d come from parkway then it would be a lot better for me and that I could pay the price and be on my way to which I told him that I’d made a Freudian slip and that I’m from Newport originally hence why I said Newport , I advised I didn’t try to short the fare on purpose and it was an honest mistake at which point the form came out and the interview began as I had admitted to him that I said Newport instead of parkway. I have then given all my correct details to the RPO and have been given a slip of paper informing that TIL will now be in touch


I can imagine they will like to crack down on people shorting fares especially on a busy sport weekend but feel that I wouldn’t of admitted my fault if the RPO hadn’t said if you admit to me now then you can be on your way . I can’t see ive really got much of a defence to stop this going to court as it does say on the revenue protection policy for TFW that prosecution may be avoidable if you have knowingly given a false destination .


More than happy to pay a fine to rectify the situation as I don’t really want a conviction off the back of this . Any advise would be appreciated , don’t know whether I say that the medication has caused the oversight on my part or to even say the RPO lied about the consequences if I admitted fault there and then .

 

[Clip]

The short version is to simply wait for the letter to come through and let us know what it says.

Hopefully TfW are inclined for out of court settlements but as they are a new franchise and this is the first we have seen from them on these forums i think its hard to say.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Were yet to get a feel for how TfW will handle such cases in practice (as they've just taken over the franchise).

This is there Revenue Protection Policy. https://tfwrail.wales/revenue-protection-policy1

Prosecution:
In the event of a passenger being found to have demonstrated‘intent’ to avoid the fares due, TfW reserve the right as a last resort to prosecute to recover fares due and deter against further offences. A Revenue Protection Officer will request a name and address and
validate this using the electoral role via our Revenue Protection Support team. Providing afalse name and add ress in itself is a serious offence and is likely to be deemed as adeliberate attempt to avoid payment of fares by the courts.
Subject to individual circumstances, a person who has been deemed as showing intent to avoid payment may be given an opportunity to settle out of court. In this case, we will have incurred administrative charges which will be included as part of any
settlement. However, prosecution will be unavoidable in the following circumstances:
•
Fraud
e.g. defacing ticket details or impersonating a child to obtain cheaper fares
•
Providing false personal details
e.g. incorrect name and address
•
Declaring an incorrect journey for personal gain
e.g. declaring an incorrect origin
•
Repeat offender e.g. t
ravelling without a ticket on more than one occasion

 

[LexMoran]

Were yet to get a feel for how TfW will handle such cases in practice (as they've just taken over the franchise).

This is there Revenue Protection Policy. https://tfwrail.wales/revenue-protection-policy1

Declaring an incorrect journey for personal gain ( whilst it was done in error I have technically committed this offence) , like you said it'll be interesting to see what their steer is on it now TFW have taken over .

 

[Gareth Marston]

I suspect a lot will boil down to how they want to react to whats happened over the Autumn Internationals and what message they want to send out. If they have had a lot of short faring then "deterring" others by prosecution of those caught could well be the option.

 

[LexMoran]

Do you think its worth contacting TFW directly and offering settlement before TIL start their involvement ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Do you think its worth contacting TFW directly and offering settlement before TIL start their involvement ?

other posters may give you advice on how to reply but its best to wait until you get the letter from them.

 

[najaB]

Do you think its worth contacting TFW directly and offering settlement before TIL start their involvement ?

Based on the experience of other posters (during the ATW days), probably not. They tended to just refer the poster to TIL.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Based on the experience of other posters (during the ATW days), probably not. They tended to just refer the poster to TIL.

Though it's all a little up in the air due to the change to TfW and the fact that it's more of a TfL style operation than ATW which was an ordinary franchise (well with certain asterisks). They may engage in a more TfL-like, and might I say BR-like, policy of being somewhat lenient for genuine mistakes, but outright refusing settlements for clear cases of intentional evasion. They may be just the same as before. Who knows - all that can be said with certainty is that the OP chose a bad time to have their details taken by the Welsh franchise (if there ever is a good time?!).

 

[Gareth Marston]

When you've got a full Cat A crowd management plan in operation in downtown Cardiff you have extra staff and extra revenue protection at key stations surrounding Cardiff anyway so trying to short fare from these places is just dumb as there's virtually no way anyone is getting on without a ticket from them!

In effect the OP was Cat Nip for revenue protection!

This is TfW's first event at the Principality Stadium - if there's been a problem with short faring on the 3rd (and the next 3 subsequent Saturdays) they can choose to lay down a marker. Theirs no engineering work or late kick offs to contribute to a railway PR disaster so a lot may boil down to how many others try it on.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Theirs no engineering work or late kick offs to contribute to a railway PR disaster so a lot may boil down to how many others try it on.

Not strictly true. There are no direct services from Bristol Temple Meads due to the Filton Bank works, so that would have caused Parkway to be busier as everyone heading to Cardiff would have had to go from there rather than Temple Meads sharing the load. GWR's constant shortage of stock isn't helping either (2 carriages on the 12:30 from Parkway to Cardiff on Saturday), and from what it sounds like TfW aren't doing much better! Now that isn't a defense for stating a false origin station, but it isn't true to say there are no engineering works affecting travel to and from the games.

 

[Spurs]

I'd certainly make sure you keep something proving your prescription and that you'd have been taking it at the time in the hope this leads them to view things sympathetically.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'd certainly make sure you keep something proving your prescription and that you'd have been taking it at the time in the hope this leads them to view things sympathetically.

This is not going to help, unless it ends up in court. Then a full-scale medical report from an expert witness supporting the OPs assertion would be needed and it would need to support a not guilty plea. That's a lot of money to try to avoid a conviction.

 

[Master29]

This is not going to help, unless it ends up in court. Then a full-scale medical report from an expert witness supporting the OPs assertion would be needed and it would need to support a not guilty plea. That's a lot of money to try to avoid a conviction.

Considering this is in an area where fare evasion is rife with the stations concerned I concur totally. It would probably be best to admit this honest mistake to quote the OP and just go for a settlement out of court.

 

[LexMoran]

This is not going to help, unless it ends up in court. Then a full-scale medical report from an expert witness supporting the OPs assertion would be needed and it would need to support a not guilty plea. That's a lot of money to try to avoid a conviction.

Thanks for the reply , will wait and see what the letter from them says and try see whether they will offer and out of court settlement , doubt they will because I've technically admitted saying the wrong station origin . Is what it is and not like I've seriously assaulted or killed anyone , one of life's lessons to be learnt by myself .

 

[gray1404]

I wonder if Transport For Wales will continue to use Transport Investigations Limited for now.

 

[Blinkbonny]

I've only been reading these forums a few months, but it's certainly amazing the number of people turning up at Cardiff Central with the mistaken belief that they boarded at Newport.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I've only been reading these forums a few months, but it's certainly amazing the number of people turning up at Cardiff Central with the mistaken belief that they boarded at Newport.

Short faring is a huge problem in South Wales. There is a huge problem with pay only if challenged, especially in the Student centres. They don't believe many "honest mistakes" as it's so rife. It's fair to say that the genuine slips of the mind get lost amongst the deliberate evasion, and, if they follow on from ATW, they won't look overly kindly on short faring.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Short faring is a huge problem in South Wales. There is a huge problem with pay only if challenged, especially in the Student centres. They don't believe many "honest mistakes" as it's so rife. It's fair to say that the genuine slips of the mind get lost amongst the deliberate evasion, and, if they follow on from ATW, they won't look overly kindly on short faring.

The ridiculous thing is that the fares in that area are already heavily subsidised and certainly value for money compared to other urban fares. I suppose some people will always try and save money where they can, even if it's very risky.

I'm generally with customers in disputes, but where people lie about their origin (and don't have a mental illness that "justifies" it), I don't really have much sympathy.

 

[tiptoptaff]

The ridiculous thing is that the fares in that area are already heavily subsidised and certainly value for money compared to other urban fares. I suppose some people will always try and save money where they can, even if it's very risky.

I'm generally with customers in disputes, but where people lie about their origin (and don't have a mental illness that "justifies" it), I don't really have much sympathy.

Grangetown to Cardiff Central is the busiest flow in the UK, or so you'd think from the numbers who respond with that when asked!!

 

[Gareth Marston]

The ridiculous thing is that the fares in that area are already heavily subsidised and certainly value for money compared to other urban fares. I suppose some people will always try and save money where they can, even if it's very risky.

I'm generally with customers in disputes, but where people lie about their origin (and don't have a mental illness that "justifies" it), I don't really have much sympathy.

Unfortunately the previous no growth franchise has encouraged the attitude of "why pay when its so sh*&" its notable the other area with this problem has been the North West another area with a no growth franchise from the early 2000's. Local politicians have been happy to "arriva bash" encouraging this view glossing over that their party signed the no growth deal in 2003 with Valleys MP's in junior positions at the DfT at the time and despite all the problems being known about more or less from day one of the previous franchise the Welsh Government has been content for it to run its 15 year course and then implement a plan what will take another 4 years to really improve things. The current TfW Twitter feed is just full of all the old problems with people expressing frustration that nothing has changed so you can probably see the attitude that short faring /pay when challenged is ok will be with us for some time.

 

[CC 72100]

Unfortunately the previous no growth franchise has encouraged the attitude of "why pay when its so sh*&" its notable the other area with this problem has been the North West another area with a no growth franchise from the early 2000's.

The current TfW Twitter feed is just full of all the old problems with people expressing frustration that nothing has changed so you can probably see the attitude that short faring /pay when challenged is ok will be with us for some time.

I don't believe that people short-faring are doing so to 'stick it to the man' and make a political statement against the no-growth franchise! They're probably just seeing an easy opportunity to save a few quid.

 

[Greenback]

I imagine that the reasons behind short faring are quite complex, and I think there might well be an element of 'the service is rubbish' in there somewhere, even if it's a very small factor. The majority of people just do it because they think they can get away with it. They then get very upset if they discover that they can't.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I imagine that the reasons behind short faring are quite complex, and I think there might well be an element of 'the service is rubbish' in there somewhere, even if it's a very small factor. The majority of people just do it because they think they can get away with it. They then get very upset if they discover that they can't.

Yes your right - but I don't think its any coincidence that the worst locations for short faring have the common factor of Pacers and a No Growth Franchise deal!

 

[Hadders]

I don’t think it’s no growth franchises or the rolling stock, rather TOCs trying to do revenue protection on the cheap.

There’s always a balance to strike when collecting revenue but in the former Network South East area the policy on buy before you board is generally well implemented. Almost all stations have TVMs and the handful that don’t usually have permit to pay machines.

Compare and contrast to South Wales or Northern. Many stations without TVMs, a botched permit to travel system, tickets still being sold on trains without even warning passengers of the possible consequences, penalty fake notices.....

 

[Gareth Marston]

I don’t think it’s no growth franchises or the rolling stock, rather TOCs trying to do revenue protection on the cheap.

There’s always a balance to strike when collecting revenue but in the former Network South East area the policy on buy before you board is generally well implemented. Almost all stations have TVMs and the handful that don’t usually have permit to pay machines.

Compare and contrast to South Wales or Northern. Many stations without TVMs, a botched permit to travel system, tickets still being sold on trains without even warning passengers of the possible consequences, penalty fake notices.....

We're veering away from the OP's case here but the last South Wales fare evasion thread on the forum involved a person who went past a tvm and a booking office at his original station and the excess fares window at Cardiff Central........a lack of facilities can not be an excuse! Most South Wales stations in places of a decent size have a tvm and or booking offices the cases we see on the forum almost invariablyinvolve people joining at these stations and attempting to short fare.

 

[Haywain]

We're veering away from the OP's case here but the last South Wales fare evasion thread on the forum involved a person who went past a tvm and a booking office at his original station and the excess fares window at Cardiff Central........a lack of facilities can not be an excuse! Most South Wales stations in places of a decent size have a tvm and or booking offices the cases we see on the forum almost invariablyinvolve people joining at these stations and attempting to short fare.

Not only that, most of the threads we see regarding the Welsh franchise involve short faring on arrival at Cardiff Central.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not only that, most of the threads we see regarding the Welsh franchise involve short faring on arrival at Cardiff Central.

Where they tell the person selling them a ticket they joined at a station that has barriers and facilities for buying tickets.....all within earshot of a bloke with a vest that says revenue protection! Clearly the abundence of ticket buying facilities is the problem here.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I mean, if you were going to try it on, surely you'd at least claim you'd boarded at a station without an open ticket office?!

 

[tiptoptaff]

I mean, if you were going to try it on, surely you'd at least claim you'd boarded at a station without an open ticket office?!

You over-estimate the knowledge of many in Wales who try it on!!

The poor service really isn't much to do with it. They're trying to get away without paying what they should.