TFW - Short fare - Cardiff Station - 3/11/18

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by LexMoran, 5 Nov 2018.

  1. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Theirs about 100 stations in South Wales but only 6 with barriers (not including Cardiff Central) - an lo and behold they all seem to say they joined at one of the 6 when they turn up at Central!
     
  2. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    I think it's safe to say that there's one that they don't claim to have come from!
     
  3. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    I'm told someone got done for just that at a six nations game a few yeRs back.
     
  4. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    Letter arrived this weekend -

    "The report of this incident indicates that sufficient evidence does exist to warrant a prosecution in accordance with current legislation . The file is presently with our prosecutions team who are considering whether to issue a summons for inclusion in a forthcoming Magistrates court list . These considerations may include whether any charge should allege an offence against railway byelaws ( 2005) or the RORA act (1889) "
     
  5. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    So still a waiting game.
     
  6. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    Yup , I've sent a letter admitting my fault and apoligsing and to explain the mornings events and that I am remorseful and asking them to exercise any restraint when considering my case .
     
  7. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Does the letter say anything else at all or is it just that one paragraph? Is it from TfW directly or an agent?
     
  8. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    From TIL

    We are agents for the rail company and are in receipt of a report , which advised that on 2rd November a person given your name and details was spoken to by a railway revenue protection staff in connection with journey between Bristol Parkway and Cardiff central which you showed no valid ticket .

    The purpose of the letter is to advise you of the proposed action and to provide an opportunity for any migration that you wish to be considered . This must be signed correspondence and can be sent to the address shown above . We will also accept a fax or email .

    "The report of this incident indicates that sufficient evidence does exist to warrant a prosecution in accordance with current legislation . The file is presently with our prosecutions team who are considering whether to issue a summons for inclusion in a forthcoming Magistrates court list . These considerations may include whether any charge should allege an offence against railway byelaws ( 2005) or the RORA act (1889) "

    In any successful prosecution we will ask the magistrates to awards costs and compensation in favour of the rail company .
     
  9. Llanigraham

    Llanigraham On Moderation

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    It appears that TfW are playing the tough game, as did ATW.
     
  10. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Do you want us to have a look at your letter of reply or have you sent it already?

    It would appear that TfW (as I am assuming it was them or their agents who the OP would have spoke to at Cardiff Central even though they might have travelled on GWR) are continuing to use that dreadful company called Transport Investigations Limited to handle their cases :( What a shame.

    OP, as it appears you have sent your letter back your next step is to wait for the reply for TIL. In previous experience of cases posted on the forum, TIL often write back saying words to the effect that you have offered nothing in mitigation and don't offer an out of course settlement at that point (although in some cases they do). You may therefore need to write to them again asking for such. This is one of the frustrating things about TIL and it has been suggested that they do this to increase their own profits. Anyway, wait for their reply and then post back here.

    I would advise in future though posting a draft of any letter here so we can proof read it before responding to them.
     
  11. MrBurnz1

    MrBurnz1 New Member

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    LexMoran, Please keep us updated as to how TIL respond to you. The exact same thing happened to me at Cardiff this weekend.

    Absolute idiotic thing to do but I am trying to gauge how TfW deal with these situations. I am hoping for a out of court settlement and reimbursement of any charges etc, but don’t know that for sure.

    Thanks
     
  12. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    Thank you for your letter in respect of this case , we have noted your comments in response to our letter and the report of failing to show a valid rail ticket . It is always the travellers responsibility to pay the correct fare due and to obtain a valid ticket before boarding any train where pre -purchase facilities are available for the traveller to do so .

    The report of this matter alleges that you had failed to pay the fare correct due and had boarded a train with the intention of travelling without having previously paid the correct amount . Where pre-purchase facilities are available at the station from which a journey is made , or in cases where a traveller does not approach on train staff and pay the appropriate fare at the first opportunity , a charge alleging the strict liability breach of national railway byelaw 18(2005) may be summonsed . The company is entitled to consider whether a more serious charge of intent to avoid a fare could be alleged . These are both matters that may be summonsed for hearing before a magistrates court .

    When asked to show a valid ticket , it is alleged that you failed to do so and that you failed to pay the appropriate fare due in accordance with the rules in force. The fare offered by you on arrival at the the ticket check was for a shorter journey and lesser amount than the journey actually made and the company does consider that an attempt to avoid a liability may be alleged .

    We see no reason why this matter should not proceed as previously advised .

    An application for the issue of a summons may now be made . If you wish to comment further before this matter proceeds please respond in writing within 14 days .
     
  13. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    It's obviously in their hands at this point, but IMO there's no harm in attempting to ask for a settlement yet again. We have seen Transport Investigations Ltd. do these kinds of letters many times before, and sometimes asking for a settlement yet again (or even on the day of the hearing, if necessary), may prove successful.

    Obviously in any letter you'll want to make sure to word it carefully such as to ensure that you don't admit to something you haven't done!
     
  14. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    Written three separate letters explaining I am sorry and my events that day and that I am ashamed of the incident and that I have requested for an out of court settlement to avoid conviction/going to court .

    They have noted my comments but see no reason why this shouldn't proceed and that the case has been finally reviewed . They are now seeking a court summons which I should await . Is it worth writing to TFW prosecutions team and asking them instead of TIL .
     
  15. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Yes. TIL will pass the case back to TfW for them to issue the summons.
     
  16. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    Thankyou .Just trying to find a number/email address for the prosecutions team
     
  17. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    This seems to be consistent with the stated TfW policy.

    Harder line with fare dodgers, softer line with people who make genuine mistakes.

    Its very hard to make a plausible claim that you've made an honest mistake with Short Faring, especially so when you claim to have joined at a barrier station.

    I suspect we will see a batch of prosecutions (before the six nations start ??) with the guilty named in the press as a deterrent.
     
  18. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    There were mitigating factors that have been disregarded . I've used a note from my doctors stating that the medication and dosage of meds I would of been on at the time of the incident can cause side affects such as

    • confusion
    • difficulty remembering or forgetfulness
    • anxiety
    • lack of coordination
     
  19. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Yet you had made a conscious pre planned* decision to travel 33 miles by public transport on a very busy day to a Premiership football match with thousands attending presumably having bought the football ticket in advance* and traveled to BPW from wherever you live in the Bristol area. That's not something someone whose 'flaky' suffering with those symptoms would do.
    * all ticket only games - bought in advance are the norm at this level. You cant just decide to rock up and buy on the gate.

    To me you cant argue your on meds that make you not function properly and then go on a fairly high functioning trip that has to have had an element of pre planning in it.

    Others may and probably do have different views but from my past experience working with service users that had those symptoms the thought of doing such a trip would have freaked them out.
     
  20. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    Was travelling with my friend , we both have season tickets and have attempted to buy tickets at parkway prior to boarding but ushered straight through by staff due to ridiculous queues . I wouldn't have attempted to drive in the condition and wouldn't of attempted the trip alone . I hadn't left my home for nearly 3 weeks prior to this and hadn't been in work for over 4 .

    My mistake was a genuine one but can see from an outsiders perspective what it may look like . I have corrected myself literally seconds after declaring the incorrect station to the guard and have immediately attempted to pay the full fare . Appreciate your input on it though and your point of view .
     
  21. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    Id re read post 13 from Puffing Devil.
     
  22. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    Thanks Gareth . I'll bear that in mind and will try and speak to TFW
     
  23. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    The train company will have heard/read this sort of thing before and will wonder at how every single time they hear of someone who has such problems they always claim to have joined the train at a station nearer to the destination than they actually did. It's a plausibility problem that a doctor's letter does nothing to dispel.
     
  24. nanstallon

    nanstallon Member

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    Sorry, but you can't be surprised if they go all the way on this. Inevitably, revenue protection staff, and magistrates too, get cynical and there are just too many adverse factors. I hope for your sake that a conviction will not affect your employment, or future applications for employment. If it will, then please take legal advice - a solicitor may be able to at least negotiate a lesser charge, if not to persuade TfW to refrain from prosecution and take a settlement instead.
     
  25. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    Yeah i hope so too but there plenty of signs up advising pre purchase etc and I am aware how strict ATW or TFW are in there approach to fare evasion , may need to speak to a solicitor and see if there is any way to get a lesser charge if it gets to that . Just slightly annoying that because of the debacle and poor handover from ATW to TFW in the autumn that there was an absolutely packed out train and wasn't allowed to purchase a ticket from the machine before travelling . Then again would I believe someone if I was a revenue protection officer ... maybe not unless they could provide mitigating circs
     
  26. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    You didn't travel on a TfW service so complaining about ATW/TfW handover is a complete red herring and you tried to short fare when you had the opportunity to buy a ticket on arrival at Cardiff Central.
     
    Last edited: 9 Jan 2019
  27. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    You are quoting the person that made the OP. :s
     
  28. Gareth Marston

    Gareth Marston Established Member

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    indeed now edited
     
  29. LexMoran

    LexMoran Member

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    Letter came through saying they would like to offer to settle out of court . Paid 85 quid costs to TIL .Don't think TIL liked that i asked for SAR for the report they were given and prompted into them offering an out of court settlement . Don't know why Gareth Marston though they would mention names in the paper , doesn't appear they've taken that approach for quite some time . Done and dusted .
     
  30. krus_aragon

    krus_aragon Established Member

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    Glad to hear it's resolved.

    If you'd been taken to court and convicted, then that'd be a matter of public record. It might be reported in local newspapers, and a TOC would be within its rights to use the (partially anonymised) details in a poster campaign. ATW did that more than once, IIRC, but TfW may well have a different approach.

    But seeing as you've settled out of court, it's a private matter, so they wouldn't be using your details for such purposes anyway.
     

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