TfW - Still no on board ticket sales. What about commission?

[craigybagel]

Are they 'scared of the unions' or just carrying out the instructions of the company's owner? Unlike the English TOCs TfW is wholly owned by the Government. Welcome to the nationalised railway.

The latter. But people are always happy for a dig at the unions on these forums.

It seems bonkers, we've been checking tickets since last August on trains (which run into South Wales!) Which was fully endorsed by the unions, we simply conduct a "dynamic risk assessment", basically its down to you, if you feel its unsafe then don't do revenue and there will be no comebacks, surely we'd be dropping like flies if it was so unsafe.

It does indeed. To be honest, these policies, along with everything else to do with Covid should have been decided at a GB level and not left to the devolved assemblies. The fact we have 4 sets of rules in this country for what is and isn't "safe" is complete nonsense.

But sadly that's where we are. When you're on a TfW service, regardless of where that service may happen to be, you have to follow Welsh rules.

Welsh Labour are under Mark Drakeford, who is rather more to the Left than Keir Starmer.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that unlike ASLEF, the RMT are not affiliated with the Labour party.

 

[Gems]

Absolutely no doubt you're talking out of the wrong orifice. The RMT are no fan of Labour, especially in its current form under Keir Starmer. RMT aren't "allowing" their members to do anything, staff are following their employers instructions.

The RMT are no fan of Labour. Umm, they clearly are in Wales because they are pulling Drakeford's strings. Most staff at other TOC's are following employers instructions also, that means they are actually doing some work.

 

[RPI]

The latter. But people are always happy for a dig at the unions on these forums.

It does indeed. To be honest, these policies, along with everything else to do with Covid should have been decided at a GB level and not left to the devolved assemblies. The fact we have 4 sets of rules in this country for what is and isn't "safe" is complete nonsense.

But sadly that's where we are. When you're on a TfW service, regardless of where that service may happen to be, you have to follow Welsh rules.

I get that, I'm not having a dig at the individual guards involved, so out of interest, how are Swansea and Cardiff GWR guards allowed to do tickets? They're based, so employed in Wales?

 

[DelW]

It does seem strange that there must be many TFW funded buses running on which I presume the drivers sell tickets to passengers, yet that can't be done on trains.

Maybe on routes like Conwy Valley and HoWL where there are many stops without facilities, TFW could fit trains with a temporary screen like at supermarket checkouts, turning the back-cab end of the aisle into a mini ticket office

 

[craigybagel]

The RMT are no fan of Labour. Umm, they clearly are in Wales because they are pulling Drakeford's strings. Most staff at other TOC's are following employers instructions also, that means they are actually doing some work.

It's the instructions from the employers at other TOCs that are different, not the staff's attitudes towards them.

I get that, I'm not having a dig at the individual guards involved, so out of interest, how are Swansea and Cardiff GWR guards allowed to do tickets? They're based, so employed in Wales?

I'm no expert, but I assume as they're working for an English based company they're following English rules, whereas the staff at TfW, even those based in the 3 English depots are working for a Welsh based company so are following Welsh rules?

 

[Dai Corner]

The RMT are no fan of Labour. Umm, they clearly are in Wales because they are pulling Drakeford's strings. Most staff at other TOC's are following employers instructions also, that means they are actually doing some work.

I get that, I'm not having a dig at the individual guards involved, so out of interest, how are Swansea and Cardiff GWR guards allowed to do tickets? They're based, so employed in Wales?

Different employers, different instructions. There's nothing in Welsh law that says guards can't do commercial duties. I wonder if the Welsh Government will come under pressure to protect revenue on services in England which the UK Government subsidise?

 

[Caaardiff]

Does anyone have a link to the official WG stance? I'm curious to see how it only protects TfW employees and not other industries.
I mean, if we apply some logic to the situation, train crew are wholly entitled to protect themselves and remain distanced, i'm not arguing with that at all, but there could be alternative ways to get back to working normally.
When the WG change the rules, i guess it will be accepted to go back to working normally overnight just like the past year and a half never happened?

If the company won't allow interaction with guards and ticket sales, why are revenue protection offices allowed to do their duties?

Also wasn't there an official document leaked to the press about what guards should and shouldn't be doing? Basically they can go through the train as long they aren't stuck around the same passengers for too long?

 

[RPI]

It's the instructions from the employers at other TOCs that are different, not the staff's attitudes towards them.

I'm no expert, but I assume as they're working for an English based company they're following English rules, whereas the staff at TfW, even those based in the 3 English depots are working for a Welsh based company so are following Welsh rules?

What rules are different with specific regards to checking tickets? Any employer has to observe the laws of whatever countries they operate in

 

[DelW]

Are they 'scared of the unions' or just carrying out the instructions of the company's owner? Unlike the English TOCs TfW is wholly owned by the Government. Welcome to the nationalised railway.

Thus, sadly, providing ammunition for the Thatcherite view that nationalised industries too often degenerate into a cosy cabal of management and unions combining to rip off taxpayers.

 

[Anonymous10]

Does that include the Heart of Wales line? Last time I was there (late 2019) no stations (except possibly Llandrindod) had ticket machines or offices, and there's no phone or data signal at most either.
When I stay in the area I use the trains regularly for short trips and have always bought on board. If I'm on a day walking trip I may well not know in advance which station I'll be coming back from. I'm going back there in a few weeks time, if this policy is still in place I can't see how I'll be able to pay for my journeys.

same on the Pembroke dock branch ok the towns have ticket machines but the villages dont and many have limited signal

 

[Watershed]

I'm no expert, but I assume as they're working for an English based company they're following English rules, whereas the staff at TfW, even those based in the 3 English depots are working for a Welsh based company so are following Welsh rules?

The Welsh Government and its Regulations have no jurisdiction in England. If TfW choose to apply stricter Welsh 'rules' to services or staff in England, that is entirely their prerogative.

GWR and Avanti are operating normally, including undertaking revenue duties, within Wales. They are subject to exactly the same Welsh Regulations as TfW.

"The law doesn't let us" is a convenient cover story for TfW to wheel out, nothing more.

 

[craigybagel]

Different employers, different instructions. There's nothing in Welsh law that says guards can't do commercial duties. I wonder if the Welsh Government will come under pressure to protect revenue on services in England which the UK Government subsidise?

I very much doubt it. One of TfW's busiest routes into England is shared with a local operator that is somewhat notorious for it's lack of revenue protection, and nothing has ever been done about that. And in any case, with everything going on at the moment I suspect the revenue loss on the English services is a small drop in the ocean.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The Welsh Government and its Regulations have no jurisdiction in England. If TfW choose to apply stricter Welsh 'rules' to services or staff in England, that is entirely their prerogative.

GWR and Avanti are operating normally, including undertaking revenue duties, within Wales. They are subject to exactly the same Welsh Regulations as TfW.

"The law doesn't let us" is a convenient cover story for TfW to wheel out, nothing more.

Out of interest, how is it convenient for TfW? I've learned something new that staff get commission, but:

1) TfW not collecting revenue is surely not a good thing for them commercially;
2) Conductors not getting commission is not good for them personally.

How exactly are TfW benefiting from this situation, as it seems lose:lose?

Whether it is right or not to be selling tickets, (personally I have no issue with that), I'm struggling to see why they would possibly even need a cover story - what are you alleging they are covering up?

 

[Caaardiff]

Out of interest, how is it convenient for TfW? I've learned something new that staff get commission, but:

1) TfW not collecting revenue is surely not a good thing for them commercially;
2) Conductors not getting commission is not good for them personally.

How exactly are TfW benefiting from this situation, as it seems lose:lose?

Whether it is right or not to be selling tickets, (personally I have no issue with that), I'm struggling to see why they would possibly even need a cover story - what are you alleging they are covering up?

They aren't, hence TfW being propped up again by the WG. Unions have gone overly cautious about wanting to keep train crew social distanced and TfW how bowed down to that.

 

[Starmill]

I think the value of the revenue walking out of the door is being somewhat overestimated. Most TfW services were earning very little when they were full, with the far lower levels of traffic and lower yield on offer this will have reduced further. The cost of the operation is enormous and although of course every pound helps, even if fare evasion were running at near zero for the past 18 months, it would make next to no difference at all to the financial position of the operation.

TfW's guards were up there before the pandemic too as part of the more diligent in culture at walking through the train and speaking to people, with checking or selling tickets where appropriate as part of that.

 

[Dai Corner]

I think the value of the revenue walking out of the door is being somewhat overestimated. Most TfW services were earning very little when they were full, with the far lower levels of traffic and lower yield on offer this will have reduced further. The cost of the operation is enormous and although of course every pound helps, even if fare evasion were running at near zero for the past 18 months, it would make next to no difference at all to the financial position of the operation.

TfW's guards were up there before the pandemic too as part of the more diligent in culture at walking through the train and speaking to people, with checking or selling tickets where appropriate as part of that.

That may be so, but it seems unfair that I, who mainly use Newport station which has barriers, subsidise other dishonest or lucky passengers who avoid paying or can't pay pay.

 

[Watershed]

Out of interest, how is it convenient for TfW? I've learned something new that staff get commission, but:

1) TfW not collecting revenue is surely not a good thing for them commercially;
2) Conductors not getting commission is not good for them personally.

How exactly are TfW benefiting from this situation, as it seems lose:lose?

Whether it is right or not to be selling tickets, (personally I have no issue with that), I'm struggling to see why they would possibly even need a cover story - what are you alleging they are covering up?

TfW aren't by any stretch of the imagination subject to normal commercial pressures.

They are now effectively an arm of the Welsh Government and so they are suffering the fallout of that Government's zero-Covid zealotry.

Revenue is just one of the side effects - it also extends to things like closing local door stations for the last year and a bit.

 

[Starmill]

That may be so, but it seems unfair that I, who mainly use Newport station which has barriers, subsidise other dishonest or lucky passengers who avoid paying or can't pay pay.

I quite agree. Although of course in most areas of the country where there's a busy station without ticket gates or another revenue block that's also generally true, and was pre-pandemic.

 

[Anonymous10]

The RMT are no fan of Labour. Umm, they clearly are in Wales because they are pulling Drakeford's strings. Most staff at other TOC's are following employers instructions also, that means they are actually doing some work.

technically any tfw staff are public sector ie employed by the government ‍♂️

 

[RPI]

Its not all about ticket sales, refunded mobile tickets is a massive source of lost revenue too, lines like the Cambrian surely depend heavily on on-train sales and again mobile ticket refunds when the tickets aren't scanned, or people short faring because they know they won't get checked on the train.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

TfW aren't by any stretch of the imagination subject to normal commercial pressures.

They are now effectively an arm of the Welsh Government and so they are suffering the fallout of that Government's zero-Covid zealotry.

Revenue is just one of the side effects - it also extends to things like closing local door stations for the last year and a bit.

understood, but why do they need a “cover story”?

If Welsh Government is also backing such action anyway, what are TfW trying to cover up?

 

[craigybagel]

AIUI, it's the Welsh Covid in the Workplace rules, and specifically the 2m distancing that still applies in most cases within those rules, that are the problem. Whether or not the other TOCs that operate into Wales are in breach of those rules I can't say, but TfW have interpreted them as meaning they require their current restrictions.

No conspiracy, no cover up, no awkward unions.

 

[DelW]

As well as the revenue loss, even if that's trivial as suggested above, it's likely that each ticket not sold is a passenger journey not counted. That plays into the hands of the anti-rail lobby's mantra that so few people are using trains that services need to be slashed to reduce the current enormous subsidy.

Sometimes 'the railway' seems to play straight into the hands of its opponents

 

[riceuten]

An aside but relevant - I remember a TOC (SE Trains ?) having staff on commission for ticket sales and there were some very dubious decisions about the validity of tickets, that were almost certainly finance driven. It also meant certain shifts were VERY popular.

 

[sd0733]

As well as the revenue loss, even if that's trivial as suggested above, it's likely that each ticket not sold is a passenger journey not counted. That plays into the hands of the anti-rail lobby's mantra that so few people are using trains that services need to be slashed to reduce the current enormous subsidy.

Sometimes 'the railway' seems to play straight into the hands of its opponents

That is something thats been mentioned as a concern by quite a few guards too. Theres probably a fair few stations with close to zero journeys recorded over the last year which would be easy pickings to get rid of.
Having said that when i do checks i am always pleasantly suprised as to the amount of passengers with tickets even on routes like the Heart of Wales between two request stops for example. Just a shame we cant do anything with the chancers and dodgers which is pretty frustrating as its effectively condoning their behaviour as well as showing others you need not bother, thats the reason why checks are pretty low whilst selling isnt allowed.

 

[the sniper]

understood, but why do they need a “cover story”?

If Welsh Government is also backing such action anyway, what are TfW trying to cover up?

Because the people of RailUK are on to this Marxist alliance of the Welsh Government, TfW and RMT, conspiring to ensure their Comrades in the Conductor grade don't do tickets! THIS IS THE CURSE OF SOCIALISM WE ALL FEARED IN A NATIONALISED RAILWAY!

 

[Bikeman78]

Males quite a difference when some where taking well over £1000 especially on an early shift. The 5% soon mounts up & is very lucrative for some in the monthly payslip.

I know a guard who was very keen to sell tickets and paid for his holidays with ticket bonus alone. As you say, early shifts are the best, weekly season tickets and returns to London at peak time. Not that there will be many of either at the moment.

It will take a good few months for the message to sink in that passengers need to buy before they board, but at least the pacers are gone and the 150s have gangways so a reduction of those who simply jump in the front unit knowing there was a reduced "risk" of getting gripped.

When the guards were checking tickets they swapped units so hiding in the other unit doesn't always work.

 

[Anonymous10]

Because the people of RailUK are on to this Marxist alliance of the Welsh Government, TfW and RMT, conspiring to ensure their Comrades in the Conductor grade don't do tickets! THIS IS THE CURSE OF SOCIALISM WE ALL FEARED IN A NATIONALISED RAILWAY!

get a grip please no one needs conspiracies on here

 

[40129]

This came up in discussion with an RPI recently who asked me why I hadn't got a ticket. He let me on when I explained that the TVMs don't sell priv tickets

 

[Cardiff123]

TfW aren't by any stretch of the imagination subject to normal commercial pressures.

They are now effectively an arm of the Welsh Government and so they are suffering the fallout of that Government's zero-Covid zealotry.

Revenue is just one of the side effects - it also extends to things like closing local door stations for the last year and a bit.

Zero Covid zealotry? Please
The only country in the world that has managed to achieve anything anywhere near 'Zero Covid' is New Zealand. Covid cases are currently rising in Wales just as they are in England & Scotland, although not as fast.
Maybe do some research on what 'Zero Covid' actually is before making statements with no grounding in fact.