TfW - Still no on board ticket sales. What about commission?

[Elecman]

This came up in discussion with an RPI recently who asked me why I hadn't got a ticket. He let me on when I explained that the TVMs don't sell priv tickets

You were lucky as the RDG rules state that you must buy a ingle ticket from the TVM and refund that against the cost of your Priv ticket, failure to do so is a Travel Irregularity and putting your Priv at risk

 

[craigybagel]

You were lucky as the RDG rules state that you must buy a ingle ticket from the TVM and refund that against the cost of your Priv ticket, failure to do so is a Travel Irregularity and putting your Priv at risk

Not sure where you got that from?

From the RDG website:

At present it is not possible to buy Priv-rate tickets online, by phone, or from
ticket machines.
Where the station has a staffed ticket office, you must purchase a valid
ticket before you start a journey, irrespective of the length of queue or wait
time.
If the ticket office is closed and local ‘promise to pay’ tickets are available
from vending machines you must obtain one before travelling.
If you board a train from a station with an open ticket office and have no
ticket, or from a station where ‘promise to pay’ tickets are in use and you
haven’t obtained a ‘promise to pay’, the train operator is within their right
to refuse to sell you a Priv-rate ticket and report it as a Travel Irregularity.
Only if the ticket office is closed, and there is no local ‘promise to pay’ in
use, can you buy a Priv-rate ticket on board a train. You must actively seek
out staff on-board the train, have your fare ready and offer to pay it at the
first available opportunity. By offering to pay there can be no question that
you are trying to travel without paying.
If you don’t actively offer to pay, then you may be accused of fare
avoidance, and risk committing a Travel Irregularity. (See the separate
section on Travel Irregularities for the consequences).

 

[XAM2175]

get a grip please no one needs conspiracies on here

I'm pretty sure that that one particular post was a joke.

 

[Watershed]

Zero Covid zealotry? Please
The only country in the world that has managed to achieve anything anywhere near 'Zero Covid' is New Zealand. Covid cases are currently rising in Wales just as they are in England & Scotland, although not as fast.
Maybe do some research on what 'Zero Covid' actually is before making statements with no grounding in fact.

The Welsh Government has made quite clear that it's aiming for as near to zero cases as possible. As you say, it's spectacularly failing in its attempts, meaning the outcome is the worst of all worlds.

They won't tolerate a Government department doing anything that could undermine that aim, hence why TfW are being stricter than anyone else in the industry (only to undermine it all by keeping request stops!).

 

[Parham Wood]

If it is part of the on board train staffs' duty to issue tickets why are they paid commission to do so? I assume that this is an incentive to get staff to do what is actually their job. When did this practice start?

 

[Cardiff123]

The Welsh Government has made quite clear that it's aiming for zero Covid. As you say, it's spectacularly failing in its attempts, meaning the outcome is the worst of all worlds.

They won't tolerate a Government department doing anything that could undermine that aim, hence why TfW are being stricter than anyone else in the industry (only to undermine it all by keeping request stops!).

Welsh Government have never stated that they are aiming for 'Zero Covid'. Last week the Health Minister in Wales repeated the line that has been coming from UK Govt, that people in Wales must 'learn to live with Covid'.
If you can provide a link, or links, to credible news stories/sources that have ever suggested that Welsh Govt wants Zero Covid, please post them here. Otherwise it's just your opinion, I suspect based on the fact that the Welsh Govt are daring to handle the pandemic slightly differently to England, and Welsh Govt don't want to let the virus rip like the UK Government does in England.

 

[dk1]

If it is part of the on board train staffs' duty to issue tickets why are they paid commission to do so? I assume that this is an incentive to get staff to do what is actually their job. When did this practice start?

Way way back in BR days.

 

[BrokenSam]

Absolutely no doubt you are right. Birds of a feather flock together, so a Labour administration and a union with double standards will no doubt get along.
It is rather interesting that the RMT allow their members at other TOC's to do the job they are paid for doing, but somehow in Wales it is a no, no.

We are doing the job we are paid to do thank you very much.

 

[Llanigraham]

Absolutely no doubt you are right. Birds of a feather flock together, so a Labour administration and a union with double standards will no doubt get along.
It is rather interesting that the RMT allow their members at other TOC's to do the job they are paid for doing, but somehow in Wales it is a no, no.

It has got nothing to do with Unions, but with the tougher Welsh Government Regulations!

 

[mrd269697]

You were lucky as the RDG rules state that you must buy a ingle ticket from the TVM and refund that against the cost of your Priv ticket, failure to do so is a Travel Irregularity and putting your Priv at risk

You’d have to be a huge jobsworth to pull someone up on this. Those that work in the railway *should* look out for one another. Whilst I will always personally buy a priv ticket given the opportunity, if I was involved in revenue protection I’d never bother checking tickets from railway staff. They should be able to travel free in my opinion. I remember being a bit annoyed (in my head) when I had bought a priv ticket from Prestatyn to Chester back in 2019 and the guard demanded to see my priv card when presented my priv ticket despite clearly having my TOC staff ID visible. But that’s just my take on things. Everyone has their own opinions.

 

[RPI]

You’d have to be a huge jobsworth to pull someone up on this. Those that work in the railway *should* look out for one another. Whilst I will always personally buy a priv ticket given the opportunity, if I was involved in revenue protection I’d never bother checking tickets from railway staff. They should be able to travel free in my opinion. I remember being a bit annoyed (in my head) when I had bought a priv ticket from Prestatyn to Chester back in 2019 and the guard demanded to see my priv card when presented my priv ticket despite clearly having my TOC staff ID visible. But that’s just my take on things. Everyone has their own opinions.

I always check priv cards, ive found many a person on priv tickets before who had bought them from a mate or similar, but we digress.

 

[the sniper]

If it is part of the on board train staffs' duty to issue tickets why are they paid commission to do so? I assume that this is an incentive to get staff to do what is actually their job. When did this practice start?

Given that you've asked about 'on board train staff', it has to be pointed out that many revenue protection staff and travelling ticket examiners (where they still exist) don't receive commission. Commercial Guards do in many TOCs and historically have done because, as much as it may pain people to hear it, 'doing tickets' isn't their primary duty.

 

[wobman]

Have to wonder how much revenue is being lost. Made a fair few short hops on the Conwy Valley line last week. None of the stations have a ticket machine. Conductor advised to download and buy on the app, but the reception in the area is not exactly conducive to doing so...

All TFW trains have free WiFi to enable onboard buying of tickets, it's the passengers responsibility to buy a ticket before you board nowadays.

 

[wobman]

The latter. But people are always happy for a dig at the unions on these forums.

It does indeed. To be honest, these policies, along with everything else to do with Covid should have been decided at a GB level and not left to the devolved assemblies. The fact we have 4 sets of rules in this country for what is and isn't "safe" is complete nonsense.

But sadly that's where we are. When you're on a TfW service, regardless of where that service may happen to be, you have to follow Welsh rules.




True, but that doesn't change the fact that unlike ASLEF, the RMT are not affiliated with the Labour party.

Nice to see a balanced view for a change

 

[wobman]

Good grief. Are they still not going back to normal working. Nothing like keeping a good time going is there? They'll be tears when redundancies come along, and come along they will.

Why are TFW recruiting if there's redundancies ?

 

[wobman]

It has got nothing to do with Unions, but with the tougher Welsh Government Regulations!

Like you say if it was a RMT decision all tocs would have worked this way, it's a Welsh government decision.

 

[RPI]

Given that you've asked about 'on board train staff', it has to be pointed out that many revenue protection staff and travelling ticket examiners (where they still exist) don't receive commission. Commercial Guards do in many TOCs and historically have done because, as much as it may pain people to hear it, 'doing tickets' isn't their primary duty.

Whilst you're absolutely right with regards to revenue not being a guards primary duty, its worth remembering that the creation of "conductor guards" in the 60's probably in the long run saved a lot more widespread DOO by BR and saved quite a few rural lines from closure by reducing costs, particularly relevant in rural parts of the UK, the Cambrian, Heart of Wales and Cornish branches spring to mind.

As an aside GWR Ticket Examiners get 5% commission on ticket sales still.

The current situation on TfW though certainly could play into the "we want DOO brigade" though as it is effectively devaluing the role of the guard.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

The Welsh Government has made quite clear that it's aiming for zero Covid. As you say, it's spectacularly failing in its attempts, meaning the outcome is the worst of all worlds.

They won't tolerate a Government department doing anything that could undermine that aim, hence why TfW are being stricter than anyone else in the industry (only to undermine it all by keeping request stops!).

A stunningly ill-informed post.

The Welsh Governement had never aimed for zero-covid in Wales. They have pressed the UK Government to consider an elimination rather than a supression policy, taking advantage of the UK and Ireland's island status but have made it cleas that such a policy couldn't and wouldn't be followed by Wales alone due to our long and porous border.

 

[the sniper]

Whilst you're absolutely right with regards to revenue not being a guards primary duty, its worth remembering that the creation of "conductor guards" in the 60's probably in the long run saved a lot more widespread DOO by BR and saved quite a few rural lines from closure by reducing costs, particularly relevant in rural parts of the UK, the Cambrian, Heart of Wales and Cornish branches spring to mind.

No doubt.

As an aside GWR Ticket Examiners get 5% commission on ticket sales still.

Disgusting!

 

[scrapy]

Disgusting!

Don't really understand that comment. Commission goes back to BR days when guards were asked to start selling tickets. Apparently this was the rate offered by management at the time and there was little negotiation, it was a first offer by management and the unions agreed. (the unions apparently only wanted about 2% and would have settled for 1%).

Now it's part of t&cs although there is little commission available nowadays. If it were taken away it would have to be compensated for. Surely it's better that the harder working guards get more?

 

[the sniper]

Don't really understand that comment. Commission goes back to BR days when guards were asked to start selling tickets. Apparently this was the rate offered by management at the time and there was little negotiation, it was a first offer by management and the unions agreed. (the unions apparently only wanted about 2% and would have settled for 1%).

Now it's part of t&cs although there is little commission available nowadays. If it were taken away it would have to be compensated for. Surely it's better that the harder working guards get more?

It was meant as a joke, as (Travelling) Ticket Examiners didn't generally get commission as the reason you correctly highlight regarding Guards didn't apply to them.

To me the commission for TTE makes sense too, but evidently it won't to some here.

 

[craigybagel]

Nice to see a balanced view for a change

Thanks. It's a pity it's often drowned out!

Whilst you're absolutely right with regards to revenue not being a guards primary duty, its worth remembering that the creation of "conductor guards" in the 60's probably in the long run saved a lot more widespread DOO by BR and saved quite a few rural lines from closure by reducing costs, particularly relevant in rural parts of the UK, the Cambrian, Heart of Wales and Cornish branches spring to mind.

As an aside GWR Ticket Examiners get 5% commission on ticket sales still.

The current situation on TfW though certainly could play into the "we want DOO brigade" though as it is effectively devaluing the role of the guard.

I see where you're coming from, but thankfully it's going to take something a lot more dramatic than the current (temporary) situation for DOO to happen at TfW (outside of the grey area of how exactly the Valleys are going to be worked). Both TfW and the Welsh Assembly have made that absolutely clear.

As I've said before, I don't believe the amount of money being lost through the conductors not doing revenue is as large as people think - and it's only temporary.

 

[Failed Unit]

As I've said before, I don't believe the amount of money being lost through the conductors not doing revenue is as large as people think - and it's only temporary.

I guess that is very chicken and egg - as if people are travelling between 2x unstaffed stations no-one actually knew they existed in the first place so they don't know they have lost the revenue.

I remember getting into that argument with Central Trains (the bad old days) when they used to leave passengers behind on platforms on their 153 operated services. They always used to say that "ticket sales show the train is not overcrowded" - but I always used to wonder when the guard couldn't leave the cab and many of the stations in question were open stations with no ticket issuing facilities how they knew.

I agree however that this will be temporary, as the guard also helps discourage anti-social behavior. Once the reputation for free travel comes along, anti-social behavior follows (I know it isn't a new problem as we have it in DOO areas.)

 

[craigybagel]

I guess that is very chicken and egg - as if people are travelling between 2x unstaffed stations no-one actually knew they existed in the first place so they don't know they have lost the revenue.

True, but I do have a fairly good idea both of how many people are making those journeys and the kinds of fares involved. Whilst it is no doubt a sizable figure that obviously would be best going into the railway coffers, I don't think it compares that highly with the revenue generated through barriered stations.

I remember getting into that argument with Central Trains (the bad old days) when they used to leave passengers behind on platforms on their 153 operated services. They always used to say that "ticket sales show the train is not overcrowded" - but I always used to wonder when the guard couldn't leave the cab and many of the stations in question were open stations with no ticket issuing facilities how they knew.

Also a fair point. TfW however are pretty active in monitoring passenger loadings. One of the many responsibilities of Conductors outside of revenue duties is to carry out passenger counts - and also trains that are unusually overcrowded are normally reported to control.

The fact that sadly due to a limited fleet there's not much that can be done about these problems is another matter of course....

I agree however that this will be temporary, as the guard also helps discourage anti-social behavior. Once the reputation for free travel comes along, anti-social behavior follows (I know it isn't a new problem as we have it in DOO areas.)

Very true, and I think some people are already worried about what will happen when onboard revenue does come back and people who've gotten used to traveling for free are suddenly challenged. I believe there are working groups looking into this issue.

Ideally though, the sooner normal service resumes the better, but it's out of the conductors hands at present.

 

[Llanigraham]

Why are TFW recruiting if there's redundancies ?

There are no redundancies, it is just another member jumping to conclusions.

And I see from a Mid Wales Railway Group's Facebook page that there were a large number of succesful prosecutions against passengers with no tickets in one of the South Wales Courts recently.

 

[williamn]

All TFW trains have free WiFi to enable onboard buying of tickets, it's the passengers responsibility to buy a ticket before you board nowadays.

If there’s no phone signal there’s also no wifi. If I’m on a hike, as I was, and decide to hop on a train, and there is no phone signal and no ticket machine I have no means of buying a ticket. Because I’m law abiding I bought when I got off and had a signal. Most people won’t do that.

 

[PHILIPE]

Extract from TFW Journey Check this morning:-

Port Talbot Parkway: Ticket Office Closure

The ticket office is closed at Port Talbot Parkway station.
Additional Information
Will passengers please purchase their tickets from the conductors onboard trains.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Extract from TFW Journey Check this morning:-

Port Talbot Parkway: Ticket Office Closure

Good luck with that.

 

[gallafent]

If there’s no phone signal there’s also no wifi.

Not true. As I understand it onboard WiFi uses (a) an aggregation of cellular backhaul from more than one network (if there's no signal on whichever network your SIM belongs to, that doesn't mean the other networks also have no coverage there) and (b) high gain roof-mounted antennae (probably with signal amplification), which have a much better chance of picking up a usable carrier than the smaller antenna and transceiver in your phone (also compromised by low power requirement).

It's often (though of course not always) the case that the onboard WiFi will continue to work fine when your phone has no signal at all.

 

[wobman]

Not true. As I understand it onboard WiFi uses (a) an aggregation of cellular backhaul from more than one network (if there's no signal on whichever network your SIM belongs to, that doesn't mean the other networks also have no coverage there) and (b) high gain roof-mounted antennae (probably with signal amplification), which have a much better chance of picking up a usable carrier than the smaller antenna and transceiver in your phone (also compromised by low power requirement).

It's often (though of course not always) the case that the onboard WiFi will continue to work fine when your phone has no signal at all.

I don't have that technical knowledge of how the onboard WiFi works, but it seems very reliable on TFW services. Sometimes the system does trip out, that's more train voltage issues