TfW - Still no on board ticket sales. What about commission?

[williamn]

Not true. As I understand it onboard WiFi uses (a) an aggregation of cellular backhaul from more than one network (if there's no signal on whichever network your SIM belongs to, that doesn't mean the other networks also have no coverage there) and (b) high gain roof-mounted antennae (probably with signal amplification), which have a much better chance of picking up a usable carrier than the smaller antenna and transceiver in your phone (also compromised by low power requirement).

It's often (though of course not always) the case that the onboard WiFi will continue to work fine when your phone has no signal at all.

Nevertheless, asking someone to download an app and buy a ticket on it on an intermittent connection (at best) on a journey that lasts 8 minutes (in my case) is quite a tall order.

 

[LowLevel]

I guess that is very chicken and egg - as if people are travelling between 2x unstaffed stations no-one actually knew they existed in the first place so they don't know they have lost the revenue.

I remember getting into that argument with Central Trains (the bad old days) when they used to leave passengers behind on platforms on their 153 operated services. They always used to say that "ticket sales show the train is not overcrowded" - but I always used to wonder when the guard couldn't leave the cab and many of the stations in question were open stations with no ticket issuing facilities how they knew.

I agree however that this will be temporary, as the guard also helps discourage anti-social behavior. Once the reputation for free travel comes along, anti-social behavior follows (I know it isn't a new problem as we have it in DOO areas.)

Central Trains were notorious for misreporting their passenger figures and this was a contributor to the "post 2007" successor TOCs having messed up stock allocations that were insufficient for their needs.

We are regularly poked to input real time passenger figures into our ticket machines for each train so the stats are much better these days.

 

[6Gman]

I always check priv cards, ive found many a person on priv tickets before who had bought them from a mate or similar, but we digress.

And I always show ticket and priv card together at any on train inspection.

 

[RPI]

And I always show ticket and priv card together at any on train inspection.

Likewise when I'm travelling, makes life more pleasant all round

 

[dk1]

And I always show ticket and priv card together at any on train inspection.

If I've bought a priv ticket I show my boxes card at the same time. If not I consider myself no better than those with a railcard discounted ticket who then fumble for the railcard when challenged by the guard. It's just rude in my book.

 

[sd0733]

Some on board ticket sales will start again on Monday on TFW trains, not everyone at first but its a start.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Some on board ticket sales will start again on Monday on TFW trains, not everyone at first but its a start.

Why would some start and not others ? Surely you do or you dont? Very odd, who decides who does and who doesn't? The conductors? Their managers? The WAG?

 

[LowLevel]

Why would some start and not others ? Surely you do or you dont? Very odd, who decides who does and whoe deosnt? The conductors? Their managers? The WAG?

When we restarted last year we had a trial first to see how it went, I was one of the guinea pigs

 

[dk1]

Why would some start and not others ? Surely you do or you dont? Very odd, who decides who does and whoe deosnt? The conductors? Their managers? The WAG?

It's been the same with my TOC. It very much depends on the individuals circumstances. In the initial April-May period all revenue & catering duties where on a voluntary basis.

 

[sd0733]

Why would some start and not others ? Surely you do or you dont? Very odd, who decides who does and who doesn't? The conductors? Their managers? The WAG?

Theres been a trial group for a long time of volunteers who were the first to walk through trains, then scanning tickets now selling too. The ones not in the trial are always the stage behind, or have been to this point anyway

 

[wobman]

Why would some start and not others ? Surely you do or you dont? Very odd, who decides who does and who doesn't? The conductors? Their managers? The WAG?

Not everyone has had the 2 vaccinations, so it's on an individual basis

 

[Cardiff123]

It'll be interesting to see if on-board ticket selling & checks resume fully from 7th August. This is the provisional date that Welsh Government gave yesterday for the lifting of the 2 metre social distancing law in Wales.
However, instead all employers will be compelled by law to carry out risk assessments of the potential risks to staff of scrapping social distancing in their workplace. So with Covid cases rising rapidly, and guards working in an enclosed environment in close contact with passengers, who may also not be bothering to adhere to Welsh law on compulsory mask wearing in indoor public spaces (as is the case on most TfW journeys I've taken recently), I'm guessing it could still be argued that collecting ticket reveneue on board is a high risk activity for guards, especially for those who are fit to work, but are clinically vulnerable and/or immune suppressed.

 

[PHILIPE]

Post #116 yesterday is repeated in TFW Journey Check today, the significance being that TFW conductors are not issuing tickers on trains at the moment

Extract from TFW Journey Check this morning:-

Port Talbot Parkway: Ticket Office Closure

The ticket office is closed at Port Talbot Parkway station.
Additional Information
Will passengers please purchase their tickets from the conductors onboard trains.

 

[bearhugger]

Is commission actually significant anyway? I would have expected it to be beer token money at best.

A Northern guard told me (very much pre-covid) that his commission was worth an extra weeks wage every month. So roughly 25% of annual wage or three months extra money per year.

 

[skyhigh]

A Northern guard told me (very much pre-covid) that his commission was worth an extra weeks wage every month. So roughly 25% of annual wage or three months extra money per year.

I really doubt that. Last month I took about £25 in commission (minus tax)

 

[bearhugger]

I really doubt that. Last month I took about £25 in commission (minus tax)

Ok, what sort of commission did you roughly make in pre-covid times? Only asking as I worked with the guy on the buses before he went to work on the trains & he also trained me on a few routes too, so no particular reason to doubt too much what he told me. I understand commission will have dropped off the cliff for most over the last year and a half or so, and will only just be starting to pick up again depending on TOC & guard.

 

[wobman]

There are no redundancies, it is just another member jumping to conclusions.

And I see from a Mid Wales Railway Group's Facebook page that there were a large number of succesful prosecutions against passengers with no tickets in one of the South Wales Courts recently.

TFW have recruited a large number of Rpi's and they are effective at ticket checks on board and at various stations.

 

[LowLevel]

My last commission payment at 3.5% was 97 quid. The month before COVID hit it was 130 quid. Years ago it might have been 300 or 400 quid but that started reducing 5 or 6 years ago quite steeply.

 

[RPI]

When I was a Ticket Examiner at Penzance, I was part time and I earned nearly as much in commission as I earned in wages, routinely took £800-£1000 per day on the early Falmouth. Wouldnt be anywhere near that now as E Tickets and a gateline at Truro, also back then the Cornish Railcard was valid at all times so buying daily tickets was cheaper than buying seasons!

But I digress lol

Good to see some form of ticket checking re starting on TfW!

 

[Cardiff123]

TFW have recruited a large number of Rpi's and they are effective at ticket checks on board and at various stations.

On my journeys on the Cardiff Valleys and the VoG lines, I've seen and come across RPI's at stations, but never on-board (even pre-Covid). The only staff members I've come across on-board since March 2020 have been obviously agency 'security' staff that just seem to stand around in pairs by the doors having a chat.

 

[PHILIPE]

On my journeys on the Cardiff Valleys and the VoG lines, I've seen and come across RPI's at stations, but never on-board (even pre-Covid). The only staff members I've come across on-board since March 2020 have been obviously agency 'security' staff that just seem to stand around in pairs by the doors having a chat.

Do you mean the "Gestapo" noted for intimidating and harassing passengers and who would annoy people by asking them for their ticket before they had even reached the machine.

 

[Cardiff123]

Do you mean the "Gestapo" noted for intimidating and harassing passengers who would annoy people by asking them for their ticket before they had even reached the machine.

Yep, that's them. Under ATW they were nicknamed the 'Green Gestapo' by locals because of the green vests they wore, and a FB page was even set up for people to post what stations they were at so passengers could be prepared in advance.

 

[Anonymous10]

My last commission payment at 3.5% was 97 quid. The month before COVID hit it was 130 quid. Years ago it might have been 300 or 400 quid but that started reducing 5 or 6 years ago quite steeply.

i usually make a point of buying on train if i can as i prefer it and keeps there job that little more secure in my opinion obviously if its a busy line i pre book ect

 

[scrapy]

A Northern guard told me (very much pre-covid) that his commission was worth an extra weeks wage every month. So roughly 25% of annual wage or three months extra money per year.

That would be very much the top end of the highest earning depots (think Barrow, Workington, possibly Carlisle, Hull and York used to average most per shift due to number of unstaffed stations, and lack of PTE fares and station barriers/checks), probably somebody doing permenent earlies, and before penalty fares, when e tickets, m tickets werent so prevelant and before ticket machines were at almost every station. I'd be interested to hear what that same guard earns now (or immediately pre covid)

 

[Kite159]

I reckon mobile apps with both e-tickets & m-tickets would have reduced the commission for the guards, especially from smaller unstaffed stations which previously lacked TVMs. Add on all the extra TVMs fitted across the network a few years ago.

Less people having to pay on the train.

As for the agency TfW RPIs, they were at Caerphilly a couple Saturdays ago, on the southbound platform & bay... I suspect a few more people boarded at Aber that day

 

[skyhigh]

Ok, what sort of commission did you roughly make in pre-covid times? Only asking as I worked with the guy on the buses before he went to work on the trains & he also trained me on a few routes too, so no particular reason to doubt too much what he told me. I understand commission will have dropped off the cliff for most over the last year and a half or so, and will only just be starting to pick up again depending on TOC & guard.

Pre-covid wasn't much more. You'd have to go quite a long way further back to get closer to that figure (before TVMs, e-tickets etc). To be making that much you'd have to be taking roughly £1,000 per shift. As @scrapy says, it might be possible at one of the highest earning depots on permanent earlies, but the vast majority of guards at local TOCs wouldn't get close. Right now I'm in the fairly high in the ranking of revenue-takers at my depot, so you can see that it's not really a significant figure. Don't get me wrong, commission is a nice bonus, but you'd earn significantly more doing a single rest day per month.

That would be very much the top end of the highest earning depots (think Barrow, Workington, possibly Carlisle, Hull and York

Harrogate used to be another, lots of business travellers buying anytime singles to London on train with company cards. Those days are over.

 

[bearhugger]

That would be very much the top end of the highest earning depots (think Barrow, Workington, possibly Carlisle, Hull and York used to average most per shift due to number of unstaffed stations, and lack of PTE fares and station barriers/checks), probably somebody doing permenent earlies, and before penalty fares, when e tickets, m tickets werent so prevelant and before ticket machines were at almost every station. I'd be interested to hear what that same guard earns now (or immediately pre covid)

This was a Middlesbrough based guard. Yes, as I put in brackets this was a while ago now when there were fewer TVMs on most of the routes they cover. Ticket offices at Middlesbrough, Redcar Central. Darlington, Hartlepool, Bishop Auckland Sunderland and Newcastle, and based on my own observations quite a reasonable "pay when Challenged" crowd at times so quite an opportunity to extract some revenue for a guard willing to patrol the train between stops. I've seen certain guards that would patrol regularly between Newcastle and Middlesbrough but only do the doors between Middlesbrough & Nunthorpe. The guard I am talking about would only stop doing tickets if there was a problem with his machine. I'd imagine that commision is only just starting to pick up a little for most guards at the moment.

Pre-covid wasn't much more. You'd have to go quite a long way further back to get closer to that figure (before TVMs, e-tickets etc). To be making that much you'd have to be taking roughly £1,000 per shift. As @scrapy says, it might be possible at one of the highest earning depots on permanent earlies, but the vast majority of guards at local TOCs wouldn't get close. Right now I'm in the fairly high in the ranking of revenue-takers at my depot, so you can see that it's not really a significant figure. Don't get me wrong, commission is a nice bonus, but you'd earn significantly more doing a single rest day per month.


Harrogate used to be another, lots of business travellers buying anytime singles to London on train with company cards. Those days are over.

Thanks for the insight. I reckon it's going to be months at least before you get an idea of how much more you're going to get. I may be wrong, but before covid hit us, the message was definitely going out you needed to buy a ticket before getting on the train either from a TVM or the app. Oddly, going slightly OT. my local station James Cook is the only station on the Middlesbrough - Whitby line that doesn't have a TVM and it's the newest station on the line.

 

[trek]

Thanks for the insight. I reckon it's going to be months at least before you get an idea of how much more you're going to get. I may be wrong, but before covid hit us, the message was definitely going out you needed to buy a ticket before getting on the train either from a TVM or the app. Oddly, going slightly OT. my local station James Cook is the only station on the Middlesbrough - Whitby line that doesn't have a TVM and it's the newest station on the line.

That campaign is definitely going out again, I've seen some targetted ads on Facebook and Instagram recently "don't risk it" etc. Obviously the push is towards e-tickets but even 3p a scan can add up if people do use this over TVMs etc, and much quicker to do for those trains that stop lots. Northern are also ahead in e-ticket sales than most TOCs as a proportion of overall sales.