TFW Stock Shortages

[Rhydgaled]

Are the 170s still planned to operate Heart of Wales services eventually? If so then at least that'll free up more 150s/ 153s for the Valley/ City lines.

Only once the new metro stock has arrived as I understand it (specifically, the diesel-only FLIRTs are intended to displace the 170s I think).

 

[Bevan Price]

Class 170s have worked in multiple with class 153s and class 158s elsewhere, so I'd say that they can't work with 175s (as Sprinters can't). You could in theory run 170+158 on the Manchesters but would the drivers being trained on 170s sign the route? In any case the Cardiff-Holyhead services are only planned to get 2.5 coaches of standard class capacity in this franchise as far as I can make out (mark 4 TSOE+TSO+RSO+FO on some services and 3-car Civity with first class section on others).

Sounds like a d**n silly idea. 3 coach 175s are barely adequate for many services. Wasting space on 1st Class will inevitably reduce the number of standard class seats - was it the TOC, or some dimwit politician who thought that 1st Class was a good idea without making the trains longer?

 

[coradiafan2000]

Sounds like a d**n silly idea. 3 coach 175s are barely adequate for many services. Wasting space on 1st Class will inevitably reduce the number of standard class seats - was it the TOC, or some dimwit politician who thought that 1st Class was a good idea without making the trains longer?

It does sound a bit short sighted. I've never been on the loco hauled Cardiff--Holyhead service-- is First Class on that frequently used? At least to the point that TfW think adding a more regular First Class service is a good idea?

 

[Cardiff123]

The BBC have picked up on today's debate as well:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50495899

Trains in Wales: Disruption fear if old engines removed from service

Warnings have been given of "serious consequences" if old trains are not allowed to continue running on the Welsh network.
From 2020 trains need to be accessible for people with reduced mobility.

The UK government needs to give permission for non-compliant trains to continue running - but it has not been granted yet for Transport for Wales.

Ministers have urged UK counterparts not to allow the general election to get in the way.

New Porterbrook-owned Class 769 trains, which meet with disability laws, were due to have been delivered to train operating company Transport for Wales (TfW) last spring. But they have been delayed until early 2020.


Plaid Cymru AM Rhun ap Iorwerth said that if permission was not given, the removal of non-compliant Pacers from service would mean losing "nearly half the rolling stock used for Valleys lines".

Several other trains could also be grounded, leading to services potentially axed in "Fishguard, Wrexham, Holyhead, in order to maximise the rolling stock available for use on the Valleys lines", he said.

"There are serious consequences to not getting that dispensation," he added during a debate on the issue in the Welsh Assembly.
He blamed the Welsh Government, saying it did "not act quickly enough to seek a dispensation to continue using non-compliant trains after the end of this year when it became clear that new trains wouldn't be available on time".

Tory economy spokesman Russell George accused ministers of not taking appropriate action to address the issues with capacity on Wales-only rail services as far back as 2006.

But Labour AM Hefin David said he had been told by Transport for Wales they expect the Department for Transport to give the go ahead by the end of November.

A Welsh Government motion, passed in the debate by a majority of AMs, called for the UK government to ensure the general election does not interfere with the request from the Welsh Government for permission.

The Department for Transport has said that dispensations can be given during a pre-election period.

Brexit Party AM David Rowlands said his group supported the Welsh Government's approach to the UK government.

The fears of disruption come after Transport for Wales announced an additional 186 Sunday train services.

The train operating company said Sunday services would be "transformed" from December by a 40% increase.


Transport Minister Ken Skates said the Welsh Government had recognised the risks of ageing rolling stock and requirements for people with restricted mobility legislation.

"For the Wales and Borders operation, the shortage of units was identified in 2017 and as a result, trains were ordered then from Porterbrook for introduction in May of 2018," he said.

"But those trains have not been delivered as Porterbrook promised, and the programme is now almost two years late."

"The only option available was to apply for dispensation."

Bare in mind that 'the end of November' is actually the end of next week! So according to Hefin David, we should know by the end of next week if TfW have all of the derogations they need for Pacers and Sprinters

 

[anamyd]

The BBC have picked up on today's debate as well:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50495899



Bare in mind that 'the end of November' is actually the end of next week! So according to Hefin David, we should know by the end of next week if TfW have all of the derogations they need for Pacers and Sprinters

thanks for linking

 

[anamyd]

Only once the new metro stock has arrived as I understand it (specifically, the diesel-only FLIRTs are intended to displace the 170s I think).

and even then there are doubts that they'll actually get cleared

 

[craigybagel]

Sounds like a d**n silly idea. 3 coach 175s are barely adequate for many services. Wasting space on 1st Class will inevitably reduce the number of standard class seats - was it the TOC, or some dimwit politician who thought that 1st Class was a good idea without making the trains longer?

Unless there's been a change in plans I've missed there wasn't supposed to be any 3 car first class sets running by themselves. They were meant to be running between Manchester and Swansea coupled to another set to give a 5 car minimum. I don't recall seeing any plans to put them on Holyhead services - Holyhead getting it's 1st class provision from the 3 times a day MKIV provision

and even then there are doubts that they'll actually get cleared

Not sure where that one has come from either? 23m long stock is already cleared to go down there (153s and175s) so it's not like the issues North of Radyr where you can pretty much only run Pacers and 150s. 158s can almost fit - they require the secondary air suspension lowering so can't run in service. Something is going to have to run down there after the 150s and 153s go in a few years, and with 170s due to work all the other local services around West Wales by then they would seem the natural choice.

But then as I keep pointing out, TfW have shown a great willingness to change their plans as required so who knows what will actually happen.....

 

[Phil from Mon]

I've never been on the loco hauled Cardiff--Holyhead service-- is First Class on that frequently used?

Yes it is, at least on the northbound service, to the extent that waiting to upgrade on the train is risky. Not sure about the southbound.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Yes it is, at least on the northbound service, to the extent that waiting to upgrade on the train is risky. Not sure about the southbound.

It's always been full or almost full when I've used it although I'm uncertain how many people are paying the full fare and how many are upgrades. Given the full dining service, an upgrade has to be one of the biggest bargains on British railways - a restaraunt standard meal at less than restaraunt prices.

I'm not sure how great the demand will be on Manchester services though where the offer won't include a full dining service. It also seems rather strange to offer a First Class service to Manchester but not on the new services to Liverpool, a journey of a similar duration. Maybe Mancs have softer bottoms than scousers!

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm not sure how great the demand will be on Manchester services though where the offer won't include a full dining service. It also seems rather strange to offer a First Class service to Manchester but not on the new services to Liverpool, a journey of a similar duration. Maybe Mancs have softer bottoms than scousers!

I'd put that down to the fact that South Wales - Manchester is an established flow, whereas Cardiff-Liverpool is a brand new service. Perhaps there might be scope for first class provision in the future, depending on passenger numbers.

(Diagramming a first class unit for the Liverpool-Cardiff diagrams, but not the Liverpool-Shrewsbury ones, might be inconvenient with the current planned service. There's also the fact that the service will split at Chester for a Llandudno stopper, which makes things a bit interesting. If I were the one doing the planning, I'd be very happy to stick to standard class only for the time being.)

 

[Jez]

Is the 11.00 Swansea-Fishguard still booked as a pacer on weekdays and 150 on Saturdays? Ive seen pacers quite often on Swanline too recently. I assume after the December timetable change pacers will be limited to the valley lines given the introduction of the 170s. Could we see a 170 going to Fishguard on either the 11.00 or 1704 from Swansea (given the 1704 interworks with Maesteg-Gloucester service or at least it did last time i checked) or wouldn't this be possible due to Carmarthen train crew on this service?

 

[PHILIPE]

Is the 11.00 Swansea-Fishguard still booked as a pacer on weekdays and 150 on Saturdays? Ive seen pacers quite often on Swanline too recently. I assume after the December timetable change pacers will be limited to the valley lines given the introduction of the 170s. Could we see a 170 going to Fishguard on either the 11.00 or 1704 from Swansea (given the 1704 interworks with Maesteg-Gloucester service or at least it did last time i checked) or wouldn't this be possible due to Carmarthen train crew on this service?

Can't answer apart from saying that they will not be 170s which will initially work only to Cheltenham, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale.

 

[anamyd]

Can't answer apart from saying that they will not be 170s which will initially work only to Cheltenham, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale.

...and "Swanline" Cardiff-Swansea local stoppers.

Yeah the 170s are moving on to West Wales services as well as supposedly the Heart of Wales and Shrewsbury-Crewes in 2022.

 

[43096]

170s don't have a modern computerised TMS like 175s (and that TMS is only programmed to recognise 175s and 180s) and 170s also have the extra power and brake steps required to work in multiple with 2nd generation BR DMUs (like @craigybagel says) so even with Scharfenbergs instead of BSIs they wouldn't be able to work with 175s

One is Alstom, one is Bombardier. The answer is pretty obvious!

 

[anamyd]

One is Alstom, one is Bombardier. The answer is pretty obvious!

Yes indeed, so obvious I decided not to mention it

 

[Cardiff123]

The December timetable change pages of the TfW Rail website have some Info on what trains will be running where
https://tfwrail.wales/december2019

Including:

Why are the pacers still running on the valley lines?
Whilst our original plan was to take all our Class 143 and 142 Pacer trains out of operation by the end of 2019, we now expect these to continue to run on the local Cardiff and Valley line services for a short time into 2020. The aim is to protect capacity on these routes whilst we await the delayed delivery of our refurbished fleet of Class 769 trains that will start to be out and about on our network from Spring 2020. As newer trains become available, we will continue to phase out our Pacer fleet, ensuring there is no capacity impact as a result.

More seats on key services
In the short term we plan to continue running pacers, but all in four-car formation, to allow for more capacity into and out of Cardiff from the core valley lines. This will also allow us to run our Class 150 trains on other Core Valley line services. These trains have greater capacity overall and we expect it to result in a real benefit for commuter services with a boost in capacity during the morning and evening peaks. We are bringing in additional Class 153 trains which can run either as a single carriage on quieter services, or coupled up with other types of train to increase capacity further.

 

[Parallel]

I spent some time on The Valleys today - didn’t see a single 4 car set anywhere! Lots of single pacers rattling up and down. I knew TfW were in a bad situation but there looked to be a huge capacity reduction compared to the last few times I’ve been in the area.

One thing that was interesting was there was a 150 on the Cityline today, and plenty of single 142s and 143s on the Merthyr-Bridgend-Aberdare-Barry Island circuits.

Due to the wet weather and the time of year, it felt like the trains were sliding around all over the place. Around Treforest Est was particularly bad.

 

[Sion John]

Is the 11.00 Swansea-Fishguard still booked as a pacer on weekdays and 150 on Saturdays? Ive seen pacers quite often on Swanline too recently. I assume after the December timetable change pacers will be limited to the valley lines given the introduction of the 170s. Could we see a 170 going to Fishguard on either the 11.00 or 1704 from Swansea (given the 1704 interworks with Maesteg-Gloucester service or at least it did last time i checked) or wouldn't this be possible due to Carmarthen train crew on this service?

Yes the 11.00 from Swansea to fishguard is still a pacer on weekdays it comes off the 09.12 from Cardiff central to swansea double pacer then uncouples in Swansea one does fishguard other one is cardiff. On a Saturday its booked for a 158 but last satarday it was a 142 it comes. The reason why on a Saturday has been a 150 is because west Midlands railway on strick every satarday to Christmas so Shrewsbury needs as many 158s for Shrewsbury to Birmingham. I hope i made sense because i have learning difficulties

 

[tomuk]

It's always been full or almost full when I've used it although I'm uncertain how many people are paying the full fare and how many are upgrades. Given the full dining service, an upgrade has to be one of the biggest bargains on British railways - a restaraunt standard meal at less than restaraunt prices.

The first class in the Civities will hardly be comparable with the Mk3/4s. You will probably only get a slightly more padded seat then in standard class, an antimacassar and maybe a free coffee from the trolley . I'd rather they not waste the capacity and the units be standard only and spend the savings on something more worthwhile.

 

[PHILIPE]

...and "Swanline" Cardiff-Swansea local stoppers.

Yeah the 170s are moving on to West Wales services as well as supposedly the Heart of Wales and Shrewsbury-Crewes in 2022.

Where did you get the Swanline from ? Most of there inetrmix with the HOWL and TFW never say anything

 

[Sion John]

Where did you get the Swanline from ? Most of there inetrmix with the HOWL and TFW never say anything

A TfW driver told me that 170s maybe do how and Pembroke dock if Carmarthen sign 170s

 

[anamyd]

A TfW driver told me that 170s maybe do how and Pembroke dock if Carmarthen sign 170s

not until 2022 supposedly

 

[anamyd]

Where did you get the Swanline from ? Most of there inetrmix with the HOWL and TFW never say anything

can't remember now but will try and find it. The 170 allocation information is inconsistent - there are some things that say West Wales on the 2022 onwards 170 routes as well

 

[anamyd]

The December timetable change pages of the TfW Rail website have some Info on what trains will be running where
https://tfwrail.wales/december2019

Including:

thanks for sharing

 

[Caaardiff]

https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Sched 1.6_Appendices Table 2a.pdf
https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Copy of Sched 1.6_Table 2b.pdf

Two interesting documents (Freely available on google search) detailing the future CAF fleet, 158, 175's & Loco specifications.
To summarise:
The long distance fleet (excluding loco & stock) with total seating capacity/standing capacity in brackets currently consists of:
158 - 24 (138/59)
175 2 car - 11 (134/58)
175 3 car - 16 (216/91)
Total = 51

CAF Civity order consist of:
2 car - 51 (121/79)
3 car without First Class - 12 (196/118)
3 car First Class ready (Depending on deployment strategy) - 14 (180/100) - 16 First seats

The CAF's are already a drop in capacity as a like for like swap and I get the impression that TfW are banking on increased frequencies to balance out current capacity issues. What I think TfW are missing is the fact that it's peak commuter services that need strengthening. Having more frequencies is great but I can't see it having a massive effect on those people that all want to travel at certain times of day. Most services can just about cope with 3 car 175's during the peak but the equivalent (standard only class) is a drop of 20 seats. I don't think having space for 37 extra standing passengers will go down well with travellers on distance services so unless they are planning on running peak services as 4 or even 5 car coupled units in place of single 3 car unit, then they may run in to issues.

Secondly, and more current, there is currently a diagrammed 3 car 175 on Cardiff-Ebbw Vale and 158 on Maesteg-Cheltenham, the rest are 150's or even currently some Pacers on Cardiff - Ebbw Vale. That will hopefully help with capacity issues on the Marches on 2 175 car diagrams and with 158 capacity issues on Cambrian/Birmingham lines. Quite often lately Shrewsbury-Birmingham runs have been short formed due to fleet issues.

 

[Sion John]

not until 2022 supposedly

I know

 

[Jez]

Yes the 11.00 from Swansea to fishguard is still a pacer on weekdays it comes off the 09.12 from Cardiff central to swansea double pacer then uncouples in Swansea one does fishguard other one is cardiff. On a Saturday its booked for a 158 but last satarday it was a 142 it comes. The reason why on a Saturday has been a 150 is because west Midlands railway on strick every satarday to Christmas so Shrewsbury needs as many 158s for Shrewsbury to Birmingham. I hope i made sense because i have learning difficulties

thanks for the info. Yes all makes sense. Fingers crossed from timetable change no more pacers om West wales and on Swanline. Perhaps 170s will work the Swanline diagram that doesn't interwork with heart of Wales line.

 

[PHILIPE]

https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Sched 1.6_Appendices Table 2a.pdf
https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Copy of Sched 1.6_Table 2b.pdf

Two interesting documents (Freely available on google search) detailing the future CAF fleet, 158, 175's & Loco specifications.
To summarise:
The long distance fleet (excluding loco & stock) with total seating capacity/standing capacity in brackets currently consists of:
158 - 24 (138/59)
175 2 car - 11 (134/58)
175 3 car - 16 (216/91)
Total = 51

CAF Civity order consist of:
2 car - 51 (121/79)
3 car without First Class - 12 (196/118)
3 car First Class ready (Depending on deployment strategy) - 14 (180/100) - 16 First seats

The CAF's are already a drop in capacity as a like for like swap and I get the impression that TfW are banking on increased frequencies to balance out current capacity issues. What I think TfW are missing is the fact that it's peak commuter services that need strengthening. Having more frequencies is great but I can't see it having a massive effect on those people that all want to travel at certain times of day. Most services can just about cope with 3 car 175's during the peak but the equivalent (standard only class) is a drop of 20 seats. I don't think having space for 37 extra standing passengers will go down well with travellers on distance services so unless they are planning on running peak services as 4 or even 5 car coupled units in place of single 3 car unit, then they may run in to issues.

Secondly, and more current, there is currently a diagrammed 3 car 175 on Cardiff-Ebbw Vale and 158 on Maesteg-Cheltenham, the rest are 150's or even currently some Pacers on Cardiff - Ebbw Vale. That will hopefully help with capacity issues on the Marches on 2 175 car diagrams and with 158 capacity issues on Cambrian/Birmingham lines. Quite often lately Shrewsbury-Birmingham runs have been short formed due to fleet issues.

Many of the Ebbw Vales are pairs of 153s now with a decrease in 150 on what was once a solid 150 route

 

[CapitalStar378]

A bit disappointing that there's still no Sunday service from Radyr-Coryton and that Penarth services are still 2 hourly on Sundays, a bit bizarre for a 4 tph Mon-Sat service.

 

[anamyd]

https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Sched 1.6_Appendices Table 2a.pdf
https://tfw.gov.wales/sites/default/files/documents/Copy of Sched 1.6_Table 2b.pdf

Two interesting documents (Freely available on google search) detailing the future CAF fleet, 158, 175's & Loco specifications.
To summarise:
The long distance fleet (excluding loco & stock) with total seating capacity/standing capacity in brackets currently consists of:
158 - 24 (138/59)
175 2 car - 11 (134/58)
175 3 car - 16 (216/91)
Total = 51

CAF Civity order consist of:
2 car - 51 (121/79)
3 car without First Class - 12 (196/118)
3 car First Class ready (Depending on deployment strategy) - 14 (180/100) - 16 First seats

The CAF's are already a drop in capacity as a like for like swap and I get the impression that TfW are banking on increased frequencies to balance out current capacity issues. What I think TfW are missing is the fact that it's peak commuter services that need strengthening. Having more frequencies is great but I can't see it having a massive effect on those people that all want to travel at certain times of day. Most services can just about cope with 3 car 175's during the peak but the equivalent (standard only class) is a drop of 20 seats. I don't think having space for 37 extra standing passengers will go down well with travellers on distance services so unless they are planning on running peak services as 4 or even 5 car coupled units in place of single 3 car unit, then they may run in to issues.

Secondly, and more current, there is currently a diagrammed 3 car 175 on Cardiff-Ebbw Vale and 158 on Maesteg-Cheltenham, the rest are 150's or even currently some Pacers on Cardiff - Ebbw Vale. That will hopefully help with capacity issues on the Marches on 2 175 car diagrams and with 158 capacity issues on Cambrian/Birmingham lines. Quite often lately Shrewsbury-Birmingham runs have been short formed due to fleet issues.

thanks for sharing, but look at those redactions - TfW had been written to by the Senedd about those...

also the build dates stated for what are really units 158818-158841, 170270-170273 and 170201-170208 are incorrect, and should read 1990-1991, 2002 and 1999 respectively, whereas they just put the build dates for the whole builds of classes 158 and 170 of 1989-1992 and 1998-2005 respectively, even though they don't operate / won't be operating any 158s built in 1989 or 1992, any 170s built in 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004 or 2005, any 2-car 170s built in 1999, or any 3-car 170s built in 2002. the build dates stated for the 150/2s are also incorrect, and should read 1986-1987 not 1987-1988.