TGV La Poste at St Pancras 21-03-12

[junglejames]

Yes, well remember this set was built in 1981. It is of similar vintage to an HST. Most other interiors are black, not brown. Also the drivers seat is now central as on Eurostar, POS and Duplex rather than on the left as here.

Arent HSTs older? Disgusting was the first thing that struck me. Give me a HST cab anyday. In fact, even things like Deltics and 37s look better.

 

[Mike C]

They are 3 or 4 years newer than an HST which is what I meant by "similar vintage". It is the same technology generation.

I guess it is personal taste. The brown is dated but in black or grey as in other TGVs it is OK. I thought the cab of the 37 was prehistorically awful, but again, just my preference.

 

[Schnellzug]

It seems very in keeping with what you might describe as French tastes of the 1970s; Corail stock was rather brown originally. I suppose it was in keeping with the era of orange TGVs.

 

[pemma]

And this has happened at the time when the government has announced part-privitatision of the Royal Mail.

 

[jon0844]

It's for steering it... duh!

But our drivers (Grayrigg) can of course steer without a wheel!

 

[shedman]

Windows could do with a clean as well

My first thoughts!! Obviously not a special occasion!!

 

[BananaRepublic]

What's the purpose of this visit? Publicity or seriously testing it out for future mail services?

It was publicity for Euro Carex's proposed service for carrying air freight to/from/between some of western Europe's major air cargo hubs.
It has nothing to do with mail as such or the French La Poste operation.

A La Poste TGV was hired for this PR visit as it is the only suitable HS freight train available. Euro Carex don't have any trains yet and plan to order a fleet of HS freight trains for these services. Apparently they have been negotiating with both Siemens and Alstom, who are bidding to supply them.

They say that they intend to use a new facility at Ripple Lane Barking as their London terminus, as their trains can't reach any of the UK airports that would naturally fit into this plan.
As such, this will be the only terminus on their network not located at an airport cargo hub.
St. Pancras doesn't feature in their plans.

It's a test to see how unloading would work on the station with a view to future postal trains.

Unfortunately not. There are currently no plans for future postal trains, to St. Pancras or anywhere else.
That's not to say Euro Carex won't be carrying mail as well. They almost certainly will, but not in the sense of Mail Trains as we know them..

I like the idea of taking mail freight to and from Europe from planes and sending it by rail.

It's not just mail particularly. The proposed service is for carrying air freight between air freight hubs, both as a feeder service for onwards air services and to replace some point to point air freight traffic.
The idea is to replace some of the short haul feeder cargo flights and to remove some heavy goods vehicle traffic from the motorways.

Would it not be easier to run to Willesden mail terminal? or is the loading gauge a problem?

Even if such a train could reach there, which it can't, this service wouldn't be headed for a Mail terminal.
Ideally they'd have liked to have reached one or more of the main UK air cargo hubs. East Midlands Airport would probably be one of those potential destinations.

Thanks both. I look forward to these returning to the UK under their own steam! (well ok, their own pantographs..)

These particular trains may never be seen over here again.
They aren't part of the plans for the proposed Euro Carex service.

And this has happened at the time when the government has announced part-privitatision of the Royal Mail.

Again, this appears to come from a misunderstanding.
A La Poste TGV was hired as that's the only train currently available for such a PR exercise, as Euro Carex don't have any trains yet.
The companies who will be using this service, like FedEX, are all private operators and any mail carried will be private courier type traffic.


.

 

[Class377/5]

It was publicity for Euro Carex's proposed service for carrying air freight to/from/between some of western Europe's major air cargo hubs.
It has nothing to do with mail as such or the French La Poste operation.

A La Poste TGV was hired for this PR visit as it is the only suitable HS freight train available. Euro Carex don't have any trains yet and plan to order a fleet of HS freight trains for these services. Apparently they have been negotiating with both Siemens and Alstom, who are bidding to supply them.

They say that they intend to use a new facility at Ripple Lane Barking as their London terminus, as their trains can't reach any of the UK airports that would naturally fit into this plan.
As such, this will be the only terminus on their network not located at an airport cargo hub. St. Pancras doesn't feature in their plans.

Unfortunately not. There are currently no plans for future postal trains, to St. Pancras or anywhere else.
That's not to say Euro Carex won't be carrying mail as well. They almost certainly will, but not in the sense of Mail Trains as we know them..

thanks for info. Since I put that have found out what you say in correct an it's not a postal train. My fault for seeing La Poste and guessing it was more post than freight.

Tho they don't intend to use a new facility at Barking, they intend to create one. If they can get it off the ground will be a good step for the railways as a whole.

Bet the groups now owning HS1 are enjoying the possibility of all these extra trains running on their lie soon!

 

[LE Greys]

thanks for info. Since I put that have found out what you say in correct an it's not a postal train. My fault for seeing La Poste and guessing it was more post than freight.

Tho they don't intend to use a new facility at Barking, they intend to create one. If they can get it off the ground will be a good step for the railways as a whole.

Bet the groups now owning HS1 are enjoying the possibility of all these extra trains running on their lie soon!

An air freight hub at Barking sounds like a good prospect for Southend Airport, or possibly Stansted if there are no facilities at Southend. I'll bet they're looking at HS2 with glee, possible links to Birmingham and Heathrow (if the branch happens). I've probably mentioned this before, but a unit load device (airline luggage container) will fit into the British loading gauge if turned sideways, will they be used as part of this with (say) adapted vans?

Also, do we have yet another reason for an east coast high-speed line via Stansted?

 

[BananaRepublic]

Further information now suggests that Euro Carex may be acquiring converted TGV Sud-Est units, cascaded from mainline passenger service as they are replaced by newer trains, rather than ordering all-new sets.
These early model TGV's are 30 odd years old and the same type as the La Poste example seen at St. Pancras this week.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An air freight hub at Barking sounds like a good prospect for Southend Airport, or possibly Stansted if there are no facilities at Southend.

No, it won't be Southend Airport as that isn't a major cargo centre.
Stansted does have a fair number of cargo and express package flights and is the UK port of call for FedEX. I don't think FedEx have a main sorting or cargo distribution centre there though; just using the regular airport cargo terminal, along with other cargo and express parcel carriers.
The same for Luton, they just handle the cargo there too.

East Midlands airport has a couple of major sorting and distribution centres, a Post Office sorting and distribution centre, as well as regular cargo handling facilities. It is the UK's main air cargo hub for dedicated freight and parcel flights. A large proportion of the night-time traffic is carried out by the likes of DHL and UPS etc.

I'll bet they're looking at HS2 with glee, possible links to Birmingham and Heathrow (if the branch happens)

Heathrow handles a very large amount of air freight, mainly carried in the underfloor holds of passenger carrying aircraft. There are some dedicated cargo flights, but due to night time restrictions, these are quite limited these days. There is a large cargo centre there.

Birmingham has no particular significance as a cargo airport. There are relatively limited facilities and very few regular cargo flights. They may get occasional freight charters and a certain amount of belly hold traffic on the long haul flights.
As far as HS2 is concerned, it might help if the proposed route of the line actually went to Birmingham Airport, rather than passing through a new station built almost 2 miles away on the other side of the M42.

Also, do we have yet another reason for an east coast high-speed line via Stansted?

Well I suppose it helps, but it wouldn't be the main driver for it.
If the Government's answer to SE airport capacity is to develop and expand existing facilities, instead of building a new airport, then along with expansion at Gatwick and possibly the extra runway at Heathrow, Stansted has the capacity for major growth.

There's a lot of available land and population centres are relatively sparse compared with other parts of the SE.
If this were to happen, then not only would the existing railway link have to be significantly improved and expanded, but a HS link to central London would be a must have. Such a HS route could then be pushed on further north.


.

 

[DownSouth]

Birmingham has no particular significance as a cargo airport. There are relatively limited facilities and very few regular cargo flights. They may get occasional freight charters and a certain amount of belly hold traffic on the long haul flights.
As far as HS2 is concerned, it might help if the proposed route of the line actually went to Birmingham Airport, rather than passing through a new station built almost 2 miles away on the other side of the M42.

A market for cargo could be developed at Birmingham Airport if a link to the HS2 line could be added and airport facilities improved.

When you consider that passenger rail is a money pit, any opportunity that arises for an expensive project like HS2 to make a little money from fast freight at night without compromising the HS passenger services should be taken. Whether there is enough foresight to make things like this happen is a different question.

 

[D1009]

No, it won't be Southend Airport as that isn't a major cargo centre.
Stansted does have a fair number of cargo and express package flights and is the UK port of call for FedEX. I don't think FedEx have a main sorting or cargo distribution centre there though; just using the regular airport cargo terminal, along with other cargo and express parcel carriers.
The same for Luton, they just handle the cargo there too.

East Midlands airport has a couple of major sorting and distribution centres, a Post Office sorting and distribution centre, as well as regular cargo handling facilities. It is the UK's main air cargo hub for dedicated freight and parcel flights. A large proportion of the night-time traffic is carried out by the likes of DHL and UPS etc.


Heathrow handles a very large amount of air freight, mainly carried in the underfloor holds of passenger carrying aircraft. There are some dedicated cargo flights, but due to night time restrictions, these are quite limited these days. There is a large cargo centre there.

Birmingham has no particular significance as a cargo airport. There are relatively limited facilities and very few regular cargo flights. They may get occasional freight charters and a certain amount of belly hold traffic on the long haul flights.
As far as HS2 is concerned, it might help if the proposed route of the line actually went to Birmingham Airport, rather than passing through a new station built almost 2 miles away on the other side of the M42.

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned (unless I missed it) the "Boris Island" Airport. If this were linked to HS1 all sorts of possibilities arise.

 

[156402]

As an aside, i note that the MaK diesels it was dragged by are referred to on another popular Web site as 21904/905. Does this mean they're registered on TOPS now?

Yes, in fact they have been on TOPS for well over 2 years now, as they are cleared for use at Ashford International. The 2 ex NS one's are also registered.

 

[Nonsense]

Yes, in fact they have been on TOPS for well over 2 years now, as they are cleared for use at Ashford International. The 2 ex NS one's are also registered.

Interesting.

Were the TGV and Ice sets dragged through the the tunnel by diesel too. Seems like an extreme case of diesels under wires.

 

[cj_1985]

Interesting.

Were the TGV and Ice sets dragged through the the tunnel by diesel too. Seems like an extreme case of diesels under wires.

im pretty sure they would have been dragged by an electric loco...
ISTR seeing a picture of the ICE unit being dragged by a Eurotunnel Shuttle loco. Although for love nor money i can't remember where i saw it...

 

[D1009]

im pretty sure they would have been dragged by an electric loco...
ISTR seeing a picture of the ICE unit being dragged by a Eurotunnel Shuttle loco. Although for love nor money i can't remember where i saw it...

Others on this thread know much more about this than me, but Eurotunnel have a fleet of diesel locos for use in the event of a power failure in the tunnel. They have a system to mimimse pollution. Unless I'm mistaken the TGV did not work under its own power off the SNCF network.

 

[Mike C]

Others on this thread know much more about this than me, but Eurotunnel have a fleet of diesel locos for use in the event of a power failure in the tunnel. They have a system to mimimse pollution. Unless I'm mistaken the TGV did not work under its own power off the SNCF network.

Correct - as far as I know it, the ET locos have a trick exhaust system. They used to haul a scrubber wagon with them when running in the tunnel that treated and conditioned the exhaust gases and particulates, but more modern technology has evolved so that it is now loco-mounted.

 

[sprinterguy]

Arent HSTs older?

The HST design is a few years older but the last power car, 43198, didn't roll off the production line until August 1982. So HSTs and the original TGVs are very much of the same era.

 

[34D]

Power/rheo brake controller. Only on PSE, Atlantique and most Reseau sets have this. All other TGVs (POS, Eurostar and Duplex) have lever style controllers. Forward for power, back for brake, which is the opposite way to most UK stock controllers.

I know you said most, but older traction was always pull the power handle towards you (granted that 66s etc etc are push away for power). Class 180s are pull towards you too actually IIRC

Further information now suggests that Euro Carex may be acquiring converted TGV Sud-Est units, cascaded from mainline passenger service as they are replaced by newer trains, rather than ordering all-new sets.
These early model TGV's are 30 odd years old and the same type as the La Poste example seen at St. Pancras this week.

No, it won't be Southend Airport as that isn't a major cargo centre.
Stansted does have a fair number of cargo and express package flights and is the UK port of call for FedEX. I don't think FedEx have a main sorting or cargo distribution centre there though; just using the regular airport cargo terminal, along with other cargo and express parcel carriers.
The same for Luton, they just handle the cargo there too.

East Midlands airport has a couple of major sorting and distribution centres, a Post Office sorting and distribution centre, as well as regular cargo handling facilities. It is the UK's main air cargo hub for dedicated freight and parcel flights. A large proportion of the night-time traffic is carried out by the likes of DHL and UPS etc.

Heathrow handles a very large amount of air freight, mainly carried in the underfloor holds of passenger carrying aircraft. There are some dedicated cargo flights, but due to night time restrictions, these are quite limited these days. There is a large cargo centre there.

Birmingham has no particular significance as a cargo airport. There are relatively limited facilities and very few regular cargo flights. They may get occasional freight charters and a certain amount of belly hold traffic on the long haul flights.
As far as HS2 is concerned, it might help if the proposed route of the line actually went to Birmingham Airport, rather than passing through a new station built almost 2 miles away on the other side of the M42.


Well I suppose it helps, but it wouldn't be the main driver for it.
If the Government's answer to SE airport capacity is to develop and expand existing facilities, instead of building a new airport, then along with expansion at Gatwick and possibly the extra runway at Heathrow, Stansted has the capacity for major growth.

There's a lot of available land and population centres are relatively sparse compared with other parts of the SE.
If this were to happen, then not only would the existing railway link have to be significantly improved and expanded, but a HS link to central London would be a must have. Such a HS route could then be pushed on further north.

Ignoring loading gauge for a minute, trains could get from HS1 to Heathrow without a reversal, and all under the wires (half a mile of OLE needed at Acton). They could also get to East Midlands Airport with a simple reversal in plat 5 at St Pancras (a drag north of bedford would be needed).

If these people are focusing on airports, then I do not understand the sense of being in Barking (inside the LEZ, for trucks)!

We then come onto loading gauge.....

 

[greentrainman]

Rather poor quality shot but worth putting up l think of a TGV set on a promotional visit to St Pancras on 21st March. Is this the first time an HST has been parked up alongside a TVG ?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/barry13092/7015573123/

 

[ChristopherJ]

Eurostars are TGVs, so yes - they have been alongside HSTs on both the ECML when in use with GNER and also daily at St Pancras since the opening of HS1.

However, as for a domestic TGV next to an HST, this is the first time they have been photographed side-by-side in anger, note that IRIS 320 (SNCF's measurement TGV) has also done a secret test run to the UK but AFAIK no photos were taken at St Pancras due to it arriving and departing at night when the station was closed.

The only known photo of IRIS 320 in the UK:
http://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/news/tgv-in-secret-visit-to-uk

 

[greentrainman]

Two of class of locomotives seen in the magazine photo were present at St Pancras that day also. l drove the HST into platform 4 and the locos where standing at the station entrance.
They where then coupled to the front of the TGV to haul it out on its return to France.

 

[ChristopherJ]

So far we've had a German ICE and two French TGVs: IRIS 320 and La Poste to the UK. What next...? An Italian Pendolino? Spanish AVE? The AGV?

I wouldn't be surprised if the AGV is the next foreigner to turn up at doorstep at St Pancras, seeing as Alstom are seemingly enthusiastic to promote it all around Europe as successor to the TGV.

 

[jopsuk]

There's a lot more pictures posted in this thread

 

[Jordeh]

Eurostars are TGVs, so yes - they have been alongside HSTs on both the ECML when in use with GNER and also daily at St Pancras since the opening of HS1.

However, as for a domestic TGV next to an HST, this is the first time they have been photographed side-by-side in anger, note that IRIS 320 (SNCF's measurement TGV) has also done a secret test run to the UK but AFAIK no photos were taken at St Pancras due to it arriving and departing at night when the station was closed.

The only known photo of IRIS 320 in the UK:
http://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/news/tgv-in-secret-visit-to-uk

Hasn't the IRIS 320 visited on a 2-monthly basis since then to conduct testing? Certainly something I remember reading and seeing on Wikipedia.

I'd put my money on the next high speed train to be seen at St Pancras to be a Siemens Velaro operated by Eurostar.

 

[DXMachina]

How about a regular or PBKA passenger TGV?

if these could run to St.P, maybe some Eurostars could be redirected elsewhere on the network (international OR national rail services)

 

[BananaRepublic]

How about a regular or PBKA passenger TGV?

if these could run to St.P, maybe some Eurostars could be redirected elsewhere on the network (international OR national rail services)

They belong to different operating companies for a start.
Then there's the small matter of not meeting the requirements for CT passenger service.

Eurostar will be introducing its new Siemens Velaro e320 trains in a couple of years time and these will supplement their existing fleet, or displace some of them to new services across the channel. I can't see the class 373's being sold for use on British domestic lines.

 

[jopsuk]

The e320s are definitely for service expansion, to allow more destinations to be served- the new trains though may actually be used on the current services due to higher capacity.

There will also be more Veleros, as DB are buying a batch of Velero D as well to run through the tunnel.

Alstom have proposed the AGV for cross channel services, so I'd assume the design has in mind the tunnel opertaing regulations (or the anticipated relaxed version- they are after all designed to run through the longer tunnels in the Alps). The EuroCarex units, if they happen, are likely to be either Velaro or AGV based, given the competing manufacturers and the requirements.

If IRIS 320 is making regular trips through the tunnel at least, surely it would make sense to get it certified for poper operation all the way to St Pancras?

 

[DXMachina]

They belong to different operating companies for a start.
Then there's the small matter of not meeting the requirements for CT passenger service.

As has been shown, the rules for CT access are more flexible than originally thought. Also the standard TGVs meet most of them (split train format, independent power to power cars, length long enough to straddle two exits..) anyway except possibly the last.

Also, the ability to run SNCF services to London would have been made clear when there was a shortage of 373-series units, such as when they started dying in the snow a while back, these could have been provided either on an ad-hoc basis or through rental of spare units to the Eurostar company.

Likewise, I assume that somewhere near Paris there's always a TGV ready to roll in case its needed to replace an in-service failure. I assume a 373-series unit likewise is lined up in case a Eurostar service fails.

Cross-compatibility would enable one unit to cover bth services, etc, allowing more efficient deployment of roling stock and better returns on capital.

 

[jopsuk]

PSE, Atlantique, Reseau, POS, Duplex and both Thalys types don't have the ability to split their coaching rakes; they have an odd number of bogies. Don't think even the La Poste sets can, despite being nominally two half sets?