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Thames Hub

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tbtc

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and City? :P

Well it depends on what you count as a New York Airport (MacArthur in Long Island and a couple of others)

Oops, and City, yup - how could I forget the closest one to the centre of London? :oops:

If it were up to me I'd have one massive Airport near the M40, where HS2 meets the East West line, which would provide relatively fast access into both London and Birmingham, rather than quite so many smaller Airports, but thats just me...

(oops, that'd mean building on the Chilterns, which is A Bad Thing)
 
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HSTEd

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Well a Thames Estuary airport is viable if you can sort out the transport problems associated with getting it, which is why an Orbital High speed route is pretty much a neccesity.
 

Nym

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City is technically an STOL Port though...

But London itself only has two airports, City and Heathrow, Luton is in Bedfordshire, Gatwick is in Crawley, Stanstead is in Essex, as is Southend, and London Oxford is just stupid!
 

tbtc

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City is technically an STOL Port though...

But London itself only has two airports, City and Heathrow, Luton is in Bedfordshire, Gatwick is in Crawley, Stanstead is in Essex, as is Southend, and London Oxford is just stupid!

...by the same token Glasgow International Airport is in Renfrewshire and Glasgow Prestwick is in Ayrshire...
 

SwindonPkwy

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It is interesting that proposals for a London airport in the Thames estuary are still around. IIRC, the last inquiry rejected the idea in favour of developing Stansted.
IMO the case for a Thames estuary airport is even less this time round. Such a scheme will only work if it has economies of scale because of the huge investment involved. Back in the 70's, state owned BAA operated LHR, LGW and STN and closing one or even two of them could have been contemplated in the interests of an integrated transport policy. Since then, many billions have been spent on LHR Terminal 5 and much more is to come with Crossrail and new Terminal 2. LHR is here to stay and neither public or private finance will get Boris island off the drawing board.
 

deltic

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It is interesting that proposals for a London airport in the Thames estuary are still around. IIRC, the last inquiry rejected the idea in favour of developing Stansted.
IMO the case for a Thames estuary airport is even less this time round. Such a scheme will only work if it has economies of scale because of the huge investment involved. Back in the 70's, state owned BAA operated LHR, LGW and STN and closing one or even two of them could have been contemplated in the interests of an integrated transport policy. Since then, many billions have been spent on LHR Terminal 5 and much more is to come with Crossrail and new Terminal 2. LHR is here to stay and neither public or private finance will get Boris island off the drawing board.

BAA's view is that if a new 4 runway hub airport was to be built it would be the end of LHR - as it could not compete. LHR would be closed and the land with good transport connections could be redeveloped as the Canary Wharf of the west.
 

SwindonPkwy

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deltic:858598 said:
BAA's view is that if a new 4 runway hub airport was to be built it would be the end of LHR - as it could not compete. LHR would be closed and the land with good transport connections could be redeveloped as the Canary Wharf of the west.

I think their view, along with many hundreds of other companies, would also be that if an act of parliament was to force LHR's closure, then a huge sum would be expected in compensation.
So, perhaps, the only way it could ever go ahead is if BAA themselves were to be the developer/operator. That just leaves three obstacles. First, business would rather a third runway at LHR. Second, passengers are not really going to want to travel to the other side of London. Third, the cost would dwarf that of HS2 and is not going to be available from the public purse.
 

SwindonPkwy

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Nym:858916 said:
Where as the 3rd runway at Heathrow would have been entirely privately funded IIRC...

Precisely. I really think that the government has backed itself into a corner with regard to LHR's third runway. All indications are that a U turn could be around the corner. It is interesting that they are going to trial the relaxation of the rules which govern when dual mode can be used. i.e. take off and landing on both runways. All of which means that later on, it could be explained that the third runway would result in less noise for residents as dual mode would return to exceptional circumstances only. I'm sure BAA will have been doing a lot of lobbying last week when Frankfurt's third runway opened.
 
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As I understand it the idea of building in the thames estuary area is that the approch and departure paths can be routed entirely over the North Sea/Thames estuary.
Runway operations will alternate according to the direction of the wind.
With the proposed runway alignment, operations in a "westerly configuration" would mean landing aircraft would approach from the east, over the sea, but all departures would take-off towards the west.
The departure routes would fan out to the north, north west, south and south west, affecting Basildon, Billericay, Brentwood, Hornchurch, Thurrock/Grays etc, to the north of the River Thames and Dartford, Gravesend, Sevenoaks, Maidstone and the Medway towns to the south of the river.
Basically there will be a significant noise issue either side of the Thames corridor, east of Central London.

In an "easterly configuration" departures would route out over the estuary to the east, although the north Kent coast from Whitstable to Margate will take a significant "hit" as it lies under the path of a large number of aircraft that would be routing to the east, south and turning towards the west.
However, in this "easterly configuration", all landing aircraft will make their approach from the west, i.e. from East and SE London, with the approach paths running right along the Thames corridor to the airport on the Isle of Grain.
Arriving aircraft will sequence into these approach paths flying over the whole of N, NE, E, SE and S London. In other words, east London will get what west London currently gets now with Heathrow, only multiplied by a factor of two, if the full 4 runway project goes into operation.


....I'm sure BAA will have been doing a lot of lobbying last week when Frankfurt's third runway opened.
Not third runway! Frankfurt has opened it's 4th runway.

.
 

HSTEd

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Myself I prefer the Shivering Sand proposal for the Thames Estuary airport, its more expensive but its far enough out that it shifts the approach and takeoff zones east of london no matter which way around they are flying.
 
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......but its far enough out that it shifts the approach and takeoff zones east of london no matter which way around they are flying.
As I've tried to explain in my post just above, the site isn't far enough out that it won't have an impact on London or the built up areas to E, NE or SE of the capital.
 

Nym

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And not to sound horrible or anything, but most people who live in the path of Heathrow didn't live there before the airport was there, they knew that their house / flat / hovel was on the approach paths to one of the busiest airports in the world, and still chose to live there. So if you move somwhere where you know there will be an aircraft over your head every 4mins and then moan about the noise, thats like going to the Sahara and complaining that it's sandy!
 

HSTEd

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As I've tried to explain in my post just above, the site isn't far enough out that it won't have an impact on London or the built up areas to E, NE or SE of the capital.

Shivering sand is thirty kilometres further east which puts those corridors you mentioned over the less heavily populated areas in the vicinity of Foulness Island which is far more acceptable than Basildon or the like, especially as currently all of the noise produced by Heathrow is over populated areas.
 
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SwindonPkwy

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Any further east and we will be back to the old Amsterdam proposal!! Perhaps we should only build roads in unpopulated areas as well.
 
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Shivering sand is thirty kilometres further east which puts those corridors you mentioned over the less heavily populated areas in the vicinity of Foulness Island......
This thread is about the Norman Foster proposal to site a new airport on the Isle of Grain. The proposed site is at the eastern end of the IOG, with an east/west runway alignment. From the diagrams provided, it shows that the extended centrelines of the 4 parallel runways, to the west, lie over Grays, Tilbury, the Dartford crossing, to the Erith & Bexleyheath area.

Population densities closer in to the proposed site are relatively low, but increase towards outer London. However, when landing from this direction (easterly landing configuration), aircraft have to get to that final approach path. Whatever efforts are made to design airspace and procedures to keep approaching aircraft in this runway configuration to the east of central London, we can be pretty sure that there will be significant impact to the east of a line from approximately the M25/M11 junction, through London City airport, to the M25/M26 junction at Chipstead.
From the Dartford Crossing eastwards will be the equivalent of Heathrow to Central London, in terms of being directly under the final approach flightpath.

Naturally, there will be far less disturbance to central London than at present, although depending on what other airports continue to operate, it's not inconceivable that aircraft may still have to route over the capital, albeit at higher levels than they do now.

So far, I have only described the "easterly" landing configuration. When in a "westerly" configuration, which will be the predominant arrangement due to the prevailing winds; the area to the west of the IOG will be subject to the noise from departing aircraft, which will all take-off towards the capital.
There is some scope for designing minimum noise routings to avoid the most densely populated areas, however, there will be an impact on those settlements in N Kent, S Essex and the edges of outer London.
Again, depending on which other airports are to continue in operation, the design of the various departure routes and procedures may require some aircraft to pass over London.

To the east of the proposed site, which is mostly water, the minimal effects are self evident, whatever direction of landing and departure is in force. I have no idea how much noise impact will affect Southend and Shoeburyness to the north (due to proximity and sound carrying across the estuary).
However, the north Kent coast from Whitstable to Margate and the Isle of Sheppey is almost certain to be affected by noise from both arriving or departing aircraft.

The point is that all the areas described currently do not suffer from the level of aircraft noise that will result from this proposal being carried forward.
If Heathrow closes as a result, it is true that there will be a benefit to hundreds of thousands, if not a couple of million people being relieved of noise from low flying aircraft. However that benefit is not without an environmental cost elsewhere.
It's naïvety in the extreme (I'm speaking in general here and not attacking anyone) to believe that all aircraft movements associated with the Norman Foster IOG plan will be carried out over water.

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HSTEd

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This thread is about the Norman Foster proposal to site a new airport on the Isle of Grain.

Yeah sorry about that I only mentioned it in passing and was suprised anyone picked up on it,

Is there any particular reason you would have to go for East-West runway alignment or is that a choice by the architect?
It would seem to cause all sorts of problems.
 

PaulLothian

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Is there any particular reason you would have to go for East-West runway alignment or is that a choice by the architect?
It would seem to cause all sorts of problems.

Most common wind directions in the UK are (broadly) from west or east, and the majority of airport runways run the same way as it is safest and most economical to take off and land into a prevailing wind. There are some which run at about 45 degrees to that, where topography requires it.

I always enjoy the sight of large planes approaching crabwise to land at Edinburgh Airport in a westerly gale (runway runs WSW-ish), and am also quite glad it's not me trying to land them!
 
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Is there any particular reason you would have to go for East-West runway alignment or is that a choice by the architect?
It would seem to cause all sorts of problems.
As Paul has said, the prevailing winds.
However, choosing a site in the Thames estuary would probably lend itself to this alignment; the further in up the river, the more the alignment becomes almost directly E - W due to noise considerations either side.

What the proponents seem to be blissfully unaware of, is the fact that they are pointing it straight towards the heavily populated areas in the east of London and the Thames corridor. The noise impact will also affect most of S Essex and a large area of Kent.

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