Thameslink 2018 Timetable Consultation Part 2

[SprinterMan]

Hello all,
GTR have now released the 2018 timetable for part 2 of the consultation:
https://www.transformingrail.com/download-timetables

Some interesting things to note from the Great Northern route:

Baldock retains it's semi-fast stops, so will be 4tph all day!

As a result of a protest from the user group, Hadley Wood will be 4tph all day.

Cambridge to Maidstone slow trains will be standard class only, meaning that Knebworth, Welwyn North, WGC, Hatfield & Potters Bar will be standard class only.

Current peak Royston extras now seem to start/terminate at Baldock. (Misprint? - Unlikely as KLN trains pick up Royston and Ashwell & Morden calls....)

No KGX trains will have 1st class! (Almost certainly a misprint)

Hertford loop loses it's early morning train. (Misprint?)

Skip stopping on Hertford loop all day.

No TL trains to Cambridge North.

What do people think?

 

[Ianno87]

Current peak Royston extras now seem to start/terminate at Baldock. (Misprint? - Unlikely as KLN trains pick up Royston and Ashwell & Morden calls....)

Kings Lynn trains call at Royston in the peaks today already.

Presumably, Ashwell & Morden still gets picked up by the Cambridge-Maidstone service, so does not go without?

 

[SprinterMan]

Kings Lynn trains call at Royston in the peaks today already.

Presumably, Ashwell & Morden still gets picked up by the Cambridge-Maidstone service, so does not go without?

Let me rephrase that. It is unlikely to be a misprint as the KLN trains have started calling at Ashwell and Morden to cover for the missing royston trains.

 

[Ianno87]

Let me rephrase that. It is unlikely to be a misprint as the KLN trains have started calling at Ashwell and Morden to cover for the missing royston trains.

Ah I see - having now read the material the proposal is for the peak Lynn trains to pick up the Ashwell & Morden call.

 

[LeeLivery]

It is better than what was planned for us in Sydenham, although disappointed with the loss of our very popular last service from London Bridge for an earlier one. Also not very happy with the lack of morning services from ECR to Sydenham, this has helped me when coming from Gatwick, however I recgonise I can use Thameslink from to Norwood Jun then onwards instead.

Diverting the Caterham service to Coulsdon Town instead of West Croydon is a very good move. They have also gone back on the 4tph proposal in the morning peaks (for at least 8am anyway). Extending evening peak West Croydon services to Sutton makes sense, although would of liked it in both directions instead of starting London bound services at Norwood Jun.

Looking at GN, I'm surprised at the semi-fast Moorgate to Stevenage service. Skipping Grange Park and Bowes Park seems like a strange thing to do. I also didn't realise how much of GN would be Thameslink.

Thameslink services on the Catford loop aren't evenly spaced but 4tph is good nevertheless. 18tph in the core off peak and during 24 peak will be quite a challenge. With the number of infrastructure failures daily I just can't see how it will be reliable.

 

[ScotGG]

I see the route via Greenwich is slower than Southeastern trains ever were before London Bridge work begun. 5 minutes extra time padding on a 25 min journey...

Wasn't one big selling point less congestion so journeys should at least be the same time if not quicker, not 20% slower...

 

[Barn]

Sorry to post the same thing on two threads, but just want to point out that Southeastern have launched a new consultation document to accompany this one:

https://www.southeasternrailway.co....heastern-may-2018-timetable-changes.pdf?la=en

 

[TheDavibob]

No TL trains to Cambridge North.

Posted this on the Class 700 thread, but posting here makes a lot more sense - why?

There seems to be plenty of time to get the train to North and back (unless I'm misreading the timetable) and surely it's easier to turn a 12-car train at North than central. Otherwise what's the point of the bay platform (especially given GA won't need to use it when their new fleet is in).

I'd be surprised if there was no demand for it, in both directions. Not enough to support anything on its own, granted, but it doesn't seem to difficult to add in.

 

[philjo]

Presumably the Kings Lynn services would fill part of that gap but there still needs to be a direct train from stations south of Cambridge.

I know someone who commutes daily form Hitchin to the science park and using Cambridge north & walking now reduces his journey time by nearly an hour compared to using the bus from Cambridge station (if the traffic was bad it could take over 90 minutes to get from the science park through the city centre to Cambridge station)

Commuters from Ashwell will be pleased about the Kings Lynn trains calling in the peaks. Presumably planned to use SDO as it is only 8 coach platforms.

 

[philjo]

the wording of the stopping patterns in the consultation document does not match the Timetable PDF.

Page 37:

Great Northern Mainline Route GN1 (Kings Lynn and
Cambridge):
Kings Lynn – Ely – Cambridge – London Kings Cross
Serving: Kings Lynn, Watlington, Downham Market, Littleport, Ely, Waterbeach (one train per hour off peak only) Cambridge North, Cambridge and London Kings Cross.
Some Monday to Friday peak trains may call at Royston.
Great Northern Mainline Route GN2 (Cambridge local):
Cambridge - Royston – Welwyn North – London Kings Cross
Serving: Royston, Ashwell & Morden, Baldock, Letchworth Garden City, Hitchin, Knebworth (north bound evening peak), Welwyn North and London Kings Cross

The timetable PDF shows the Kings Lynn peak trains calling at Ashwell & Morden and Royston (not mentioned above). it also shows GN2 services starting from Baldock , calling at Letchworth, Hitchin, Knebworth and Welwyn North - the text above says they start at Royston and serve Knebworth northbound in the evening peak.

Cambridge -Brighton services are shown in the consultation document as calling at Baldock in peak only. the timetable PDF shows they cal half-hourly all day.

So which version is correct?
or is the text from the consultation document just the same form the previous document and not amended. Somewhat confusing!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Sorry to post the same thing on two threads, but just want to point out that Southeastern have launched a new consultation document to accompany this one:

https://www.southeasternrailway.co....heastern-may-2018-timetable-changes.pdf?la=en

Hope I is just a consultation and not actually passed yet, this sounds ridiculous, hopefully they'll axe the Thameslink Rainham service in a few years.

I cant see why they can't keep the Woolwich semi fast but keep it Gravesend, Greenhithe, Dartford, Abbey Wood, Woolwich A, Charlton, Blackheath, Lewisham, London Bridge and so on, or divert it to Victoria, they tried to have a New Eltham fast service a few years back and it didn't work.

 

[Barn]

Hope I is just a consultation and not actually passed yet, this sounds ridiculous, hopefully they'll axe the Thameslink Rainham service in a few years.

I cant see why they can't keep the Woolwich semi fast but keep it Gravesend, Greenhithe, Dartford, Abbey Wood, Woolwich A, Charlton, Blackheath, Lewisham, London Bridge and so on, or divert it to Victoria, they tried to have a New Eltham fast service a few years back and it didn't work.

What's your issue with the GTR service?

For the people of Gravesend, the real replacement for the Woolwich semi-fast service isn't the Thameslink but the Sidcup line semi-fast service.

 

[Hadders]

A few observations on the current GN routes:

- Hertford North/Watton at Stone - Stevenage still proposed bustitution until a new bay platform is built at Stevenage (for which there is no funding). This is unacceptable, a bus will take far too long especially in the peaks.
- No direct trains between Potters Bar-Knebworth and Arlesey-Peterborough with a change at Stevenage or Hitchin required. The connection time is 8 mins northbound and 15 southbound. Too long, particularly southbound.
- I know late night trains are still subject to consultation but many seem to switch to Kings Cross which could cause confusion.
- Weekend draft timetables are still required.
- My local station is Stevenage so at certain times Kings Cross will be better, at others St Pancras. Cue a quick dash across St Pancras Road at certain times!

Overall there is a significant change to services through Stevenage, particularly at Off Peak times which is very welcome and will make it a turn up and go service. I've not studied the peak services in too much detail so don't know the overall increase in trains.

 

[NorthKent1989]

What's your issue with the GTR service?

For the people of Gravesend, the real replacement for the Woolwich semi-fast service isn't the Thameslink but the Sidcup line semi-fast service.

Crossrail extending to Gravesend/Ebbsfleet would've been much better in the long run, plus the fact that Thameslink wont be calling at Belvedere and Erith, places with expected population growth over the next few years, Crossrail would've stopped at these locations

Thameslink might've worked better on the Sidcup or Bexleyheath lines where there are very few connections but even then it should only run as far as Dartford, but there was a reason why they dropped the Dartford routes from Thameslink to begin with,

 

[SprinterMan]

the wording of the stopping patterns in the consultation document does not match the Timetable PDF.




The timetable PDF shows the Kings Lynn peak trains calling at Ashwell & Morden and Royston (not mentioned above). it also shows GN2 services starting from Baldock , calling at Letchworth, Hitchin, Knebworth and Welwyn North - the text above says they start at Royston and serve Knebworth northbound in the evening peak.

Cambridge -Brighton services are shown in the consultation document as calling at Baldock in peak only. the timetable PDF shows they cal half-hourly all day.

So which version is correct?
or is the text from the consultation document just the same form the previous document and not amended. Somewhat confusing!

The timetable is the correct one, the timetable is the consultation document with the feedback from it tken into account

 

[Barn]

plus the fact that Thameslink wont be calling at Belvedere and Erith, places with expected population growth over the next few years

I will concede that it is a bit unfortunate that the GTR service calls at stations like Stone Crossing and Northfleet but not at stations like Belvedere and Erith which are an order of magnitude busier.

 

[ijmad]

Thameslink services on the Catford loop aren't evenly spaced but 4tph is good nevertheless.

At least no ridiculous 28 minute gaps though (9:39 then 10:07 from Denmark Hill, I'm looking at you).

According to the Southeastern consultation document we'll get one more high peak on the Catford Loop (from Sole Street) which will presumably fill one of the gaps in a 10-minute service pattern.

I'd heard we might manage to get 6tph through Catford in the high peak, although looks like 5tph with 4tph through to the Thameslink core all day. Guess that's not too bad.

 

[Failed Unit]

pasted from another thread.

Haven't looked in every detail but very little changed sinces the consultation including the very poor service from South of Stevenage to Peterborough.

One interesting thing is knebworth gets 4TPH in the peak.

Hatfield and WGC big losers with slower services. In the peak getting into London on the fastest train is now 30 minutes as compared to 22 today. (From wgc). That said many going beyond kings cross may get that time back with the direct service through core. Looks like they use the slow line throughout.

As for overcrowding the seat reduction may work. Faster options exist from most stations north to London and Finsbury Park. (North of WGC) and the difference in speed of the service that calls at new Barnet, oakleigh park and new Southgate isn't much slower to get people moving to it. Today many crowd into the fast to save about 10 mins.

Shame the Peterborough problem is dismissed. I guess slows journeys are a given now. As we suspected robustness will be tested to the limit. Still amazed welwyn north gets 4tph considering the performance risk.

Looking at the metro. As the slower services are on the slow lines throughout less advantageous to change at Finsbury Park if you are travelling from Hatfield and further north to Moorgate. I wonder if more will use the stopper throughout or change at Hatfield for a seat now.

Disappointed that I am on the biggest loser station in terms of speed, loss of direct services (with a poor connection replacement) but always winners and losers in timetable changes.

Looking at the comment about no first class. I wonder if all 8 coach class 700 are declassified. Although the 387s don't have first class anyway so we have already lost this.

 

[ijmad]

Looking at the comment about no first class. I wonder if all 8 coach class 700 are declassified. Although the 387s don't have first class anyway so we have already lost this.

The rear first class section on the 700s is currently always declassified (as per this reply from Thameslink's twitter and this thread). They can't remove one of the sections and replace the the seating configuration for 'reasons' from the DfT.

 

[GodAtum]

I am very worried about this. Looks like I will not be able to make my connection anymore. I currently get the 0732-0749 from East Croydon to Clapham, then the 0752 to Guildford.

The new timetable has 0728-0749. Not sure why it is moved earlier? I am unable to arrive at East Croydon to get the 0728. The next one on the new timetable is the 0734-0755, which means I miss my connection.

 

[ijmad]

I am very worried about this. Looks like I will not be able to make my connection anymore. I currently get the 0732-0749 from East Croydon to Clapham, then the 0752 to Guildford.

The new timetable has 0728-0749. Not sure why it is moved earlier? I am unable to arrive at East Croydon to get the 0728. The next one on the new timetable is the 0734-0755, which means I miss my connection.

Most of these changes aren't happening until May-Dec next year so you have a while to figure it out, no need to panic.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Tbh I'm not sure if there are any real winners in this, it seems slap dash and last minute the plans, some where, commuters are losing out, in the long run I can see another major shake up in South London in a decades time, it was nearly a decade ago when there was a last shake up in services in 2009, even minor things like the Vic-Orp trains terminating 2tph at Bromley South will create issues with mainline services.

I don't mean to be pessimistic about this, hopefully ill be wrong and Thameslink does an amazing job.

 

[infobleep]

I am very worried about this. Looks like I will not be able to make my connection anymore. I currently get the 0732-0749 from East Croydon to Clapham, then the 0752 to Guildford.

The new timetable has 0728-0749. Not sure why it is moved earlier? I am unable to arrive at East Croydon to get the 0728. The next one on the new timetable is the 0734-0755, which means I miss my connection.

How often do you currently miss the 52 at Clapham Junction, as that is an unofficial connection? Would they care if you cannot longer make an unofficial connection? I imagine they would be more interested in the official ones, if they are interested at all. Just my opinion.

 

[Hophead]

I am very worried about this. Looks like I will not be able to make my connection anymore. I currently get the 0732-0749 from East Croydon to Clapham, then the 0752 to Guildford.

The new timetable has 0728-0749. Not sure why it is moved earlier? I am unable to arrive at East Croydon to get the 0728. The next one on the new timetable is the 0734-0755, which means I miss my connection.

Not sure what your times are referring to here, given that East Croydon to Clapham Junction is a 10 minute journey (the 07:32 is scheduled to arrive at 07:41 and is seldom more than 2-3 minutes down).

 

[GodAtum]

Not sure what your times are referring to here, given that East Croydon to Clapham Junction is a 10 minute journey (the 07:32 is scheduled to arrive at 07:41 and is seldom more than 2-3 minutes down).

Odd, for some reason it's shown as 0732 - 0749 here https://www.transformingrail.com/timetables?origin=ECR&destination=VIC&hour=07&minute=30

 

[greatkingrat]

That's the time it arrives at Victoria, not at Clapham Junction.

 

[ijmad]

Surely there will be changes next year in the SWT timetable coming anyway, thanks to 10 carriage services and the new Waterloo platforms, which might invalidate this whole conversation about making this connection...

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely there will be changes next year in the SWT timetable coming anyway, thanks to 10 carriage services and the new Waterloo platforms, which might invalidate this whole conversation about making this connection...

The new Waterloo platforms are not actually fully available until Dec 2018 timetable though, which is when major changes are due.

I think Dec 2017 changes will be relatively minor with 10 car trains running today's timetable. So frequencies will be broadly the same, but timings may change because P1-6 will be operated differently with the new layout.

 

[rdm111]

Am I right in seeing only one direct Seaford - Victoria service in the morning, and none in the evening?

 

[Sunset route]

Am I right in seeing only one direct Seaford - Victoria service in the morning, and none in the evening?

Your correct on saying that there is only one direct service from Seaford down from two to London in the morning. I've never known any direct services from Seaford to London in the evening.

There is however one direct service back in the evening as the 17:45 from Victoria arriving at Lewes at 18:52 with Ore portion departing at 18:56 followed by the Seaford portion at 18:59, which is followed by the Brighton to Newhaven Harbour at 19:05.