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Thameslink 2018 Timetable Consultation Part 2

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rdm111

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Thanks Sunset, sorry yes I did mean the direct evening return ex Victoria.

I appreciate the clarification as I didn't read the direct return, I just hope it stays there! :)
 
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Deepgreen

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Southern's web site has a 'news' item about them "revealing" plans for the new timetable - there's generally nothing new here that hadn't previously been touted by GTR for ages! A significant part of their 'reveal' appears to be the 'news' that they are continuing to consult on plans - this is almost as bad as GWR's infamous proclamation that they are revitalising the West of England!

I particularly liked the part about; "115 new trains, many the size of 21 double-decker buses" - what a strange and irrelevant comparison - as if these trains will be replacing those buses.

Desperate stuff.
 
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NorthKent1989

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Here's the timetable for the metro routes:

https://www.transformingrail.com/download-timetables

Rainham to Luton by the looks of things will take 2hrs and 20 mins hardly a metro style service, especially since as this service will essentially replaced the Gillingham semi fasts, currently its around 1hr10 between London Bridge and Gillingham, from 2018 the journey will take 1hr22, adding twelve minutes to the journey, I know commuters from.Medway can go via the faster Victoria route but not everyone needs or wants Victoria
 

Barn

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Here's the timetable for the metro routes:

https://www.transformingrail.com/download-timetables

Rainham to Luton by the looks of things will take 2hrs and 20 mins hardly a metro style service, especially since as this service will essentially replaced the Gillingham semi fasts, currently its around 1hr10 between London Bridge and Gillingham, from 2018 the journey will take 1hr22, adding twelve minutes to the journey, I know commuters from.Medway can go via the faster Victoria route but not everyone needs or wants Victoria

It's basically two metro routes which are linked together. The journey does take longer but a faster service via Sidcup has been announced. Doesn't Medway get fast Cannon Street services in the peaks too?

I think is unreasonable to expect to live in Dartford / Gravesend and have your trains whizz non-stop through busy stations on a two-track railway just to save a few minutes.
 

NorthKent1989

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It's basically two metro routes which are linked together. The journey does take longer but a faster service via Sidcup has been announced. Doesn't Medway get fast Cannon Street services in the peaks too?

I think is unreasonable to expect to live in Dartford / Gravesend and have your trains whizz non-stop through busy stations on a two-track railway just to save a few minutes.

Why can't Dartford or Gravesend trains be semi fast? Sydenham and Forest Hill stations are probably busier than Slade Green or Erith yet semi fast trains pass through these stations without stopping (okay I know these trains are served by London Overground trains but for arguments sake) Gravesend is also further out than Croydon is so its understandable that commuters there want a faster journey and not to meander or trundled along South East London, plus isn't that the reason why Thameslink won't be stopping at Belvedere or Erith is because of time issues and they want to save a few minutes?

I assumed that the whole point of having Thameslink services specifically along the Greenwich line was to compensate for the permanent loss of Charing Cross trains (which Crossrail will more than do that from 2018 for Erith and Belvedere) and that the semi fasts would be truncated at Gravesend or Dartford, not to make journey times slower, at least there will be semi fast Sidcup trains though I can see this conflicting with Tonbridge services.

Isn't Rainham also a similar distance to London as Maidstone is?
 

otomous

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Why can't Dartford or Gravesend trains be semi fast? Sydenham and Forest Hill stations are probably busier than Slade Green or Erith yet semi fast trains pass through these stations without stopping (okay I know these trains are served by London Overground trains but for arguments sake) Gravesend is also further out than Croydon is so its understandable that commuters there want a faster journey and not to meander or trundled along South East London, plus isn't that the reason why Thameslink won't be stopping at Belvedere or Erith is because of time issues and they want to save a few minutes?

I assumed that the whole point of having Thameslink services specifically along the Greenwich line was to compensate for the permanent loss of Charing Cross trains (which Crossrail will more than do that from 2018 for Erith and Belvedere) and that the semi fasts would be truncated at Gravesend or Dartford, not to make journey times slower, at least there will be semi fast Sidcup trains though I can see this conflicting with Tonbridge services.

Isn't Rainham also a similar distance to London as Maidstone is?

It is a 4 track railway between New Cross Gate and East Croydon so a mix of stoppers and fasts is easier to achieve.
 

NorthKent1989

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Beckenham Junction, Penge East and Herne Hill are also very busy stations but have had to contend with a meagre 4tph all stations service for several years now, (Beckenham Junction and Herne Hill did have semi fasts at one point until the idiots in charge removed them.in favour of having all fast trains running from Bromley South)

Also having Thameslink so deep into SE territory will be operationally a nightmare in the long run.
 

ijmad

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Beckenham Junction, Penge East and Herne Hill are also very busy stations but have had to contend with a meagre 4tph all stations service for several years now, (Beckenham Junction and Herne Hill did have semi fasts at one point until the idiots in charge removed them.in favour of having all fast trains running from Bromley South)

Also having Thameslink so deep into SE territory will be operationally a nightmare in the long run.

Herne Hill residents were offered more trains per hour if they were happy for their service to terminate at Blackfriars as part of the proposed Wimbledon loop changes originally intended to happen at the completion of the Thameslink Programme.

There was a massive local campaign to stop this from happening and Network Rail reversed their position.
 

ComUtoR

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Beckenham Junction, Penge East and Herne Hill are also very busy stations but have had to contend with a meagre 4tph all stations service for several years now

If your talking about the Orpy<>Vic service then you are overstating. 4tph is too much outside the peak. 4tph is more than enough to cope with demand and you can run a 4-Car all day and they are barely half full.

In the peak they are at capacity and need a rethink in terms fo the service but that is happening with the increased services out of the bay at Beckenham. That should take the pressure off the peak services running all stations.
 

Pumbaa

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As part of the consultation, 2tph of the Vic-Orp are to be cut back to Vic-Bromley Sth.
 

Mutant Lemming

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The train I usually commute to work on leaves 5 minutes earlier and reaches it's destination 2 minutes later - i.e. a current journey time of 18 minutes is now increased to 25 minutes. Is this what we have endured a decade of "improvement" works for ?
 

JamesRowden

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The train I usually commute to work on leaves 5 minutes earlier and reaches it's destination 2 minutes later - i.e. a current journey time of 18 minutes is now increased to 25 minutes. Is this what we have endured a decade of "improvement" works for ?

The benefit is a significant capacity/frequency increase through the Thameslink core. The pre-works peak time frequency between Blackfriars and London Bridge of 0tph is replaced with a 16tph service. And all Charing Cross services stopping at London Bridge.
 
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Hadders

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Spare a thought for someone needing to travel from Knebworth to Arlesey, for example. Currently a direct train but come the new timetable will require a change at Stevenage with an 8 minute wait northbound and 17 minutes southbound.

This applies to journeys from stations between Potters Bar-Knebworth to stations between Arlesey-Huntingdon.

Also, anyone wanting to travel between Stevenage and Hertford can catch a train taking around 15 minutes. Come the new timetable this will be a bus which at the wrong time of day can take an hour.
 

JamesRowden

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Spare a thought for someone needing to travel from Knebworth to Arlesey, for example. Currently a direct train but come the new timetable will require a change at Stevenage with an 8 minute wait northbound and 17 minutes southbound.

This applies to journeys from stations between Potters Bar-Knebworth to stations between Arlesey-Huntingdon.

Also, anyone wanting to travel between Stevenage and Hertford can catch a train taking around 15 minutes. Come the new timetable this will be a bus which at the wrong time of day can take an hour.

Do you have a suggestion for how to make the overall timetable better considering this issue?
 
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LeeLivery

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If your talking about the Orpy<>Vic service then you are overstating. 4tph is too much outside the peak. 4tph is more than enough to cope with demand and you can run a 4-Car all day and they are barely half full.

4tph off peak is too much? Must not be using the same Penge East I use. Its not packed, but its 6-8 car all day and isn't exactly empty. I'd say 4tph is just about right. 2tph on Sundays is too low - they're rammed and standing only from Penge/Sydenham Hill to Victoria.
 
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LeeLivery

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Why can't Dartford or Gravesend trains be semi fast? Sydenham and Forest Hill stations are probably busier than Slade Green or Erith yet semi fast trains pass through these stations without stopping (okay I know these trains are served by London Overground trains but for arguments sake) Gravesend is also further out than Croydon is so its understandable that commuters there want a faster journey and not to meander or trundled along South East London, plus isn't that the reason why Thameslink won't be stopping at Belvedere or Erith is because of time issues and they want to save a few minutes?

I assumed that the whole point of having Thameslink services specifically along the Greenwich line was to compensate for the permanent loss of Charing Cross trains (which Crossrail will more than do that from 2018 for Erith and Belvedere) and that the semi fasts would be truncated at Gravesend or Dartford, not to make journey times slower, at least there will be semi fast Sidcup trains though I can see this conflicting with Tonbridge services.

Isn't Rainham also a similar distance to London as Maidstone is?

That is a strange comparison. As said before, it is 4 tracks but, also Sydenham & FH don't have platforms on the fasts. So GTR doesn't have a choice but to run fast for all but 4tph. After all the Thameslink works, the Sydenham corridor is probably the only place along the Thameslink network that has a negative or no improvement out of the Thameslink Programme. At a time when everything is getting later, even our very very popular last service from London Bridge is planned to be withdrawn for an earlier one, so I'd think the North Kent should be happy considering its getting Thameslink and a Crossrail interchange.

Beckenham Junction, Penge East and Herne Hill are also very busy stations but have had to contend with a meagre 4tph all stations service for several years now, (Beckenham Junction and Herne Hill did have semi fasts at one point until the idiots in charge removed them.in favour of having all fast trains running from Bromley South)

Also having Thameslink so deep into SE territory will be operationally a nightmare in the long run.

Herne Hill is two stations from London Victoria, its hardly a long journey. Brixton and West Dulwich have become busier, quite a lot of people get off at Brixton from the south. Like all along the route Sydenham, Penge and Beckenham are South London suburbs, in zone 3-4. Again, not very out and only 20-ish minutes into Victoria, they aren't all the way out like Shepperton. They aren't nearly as busy as Putney, Richmond or Twickenham, they just don't warrant semi-fast trains.
 
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Mutant Lemming

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The benefit is a significant capacity/frequency increase through the Thameslink core. The pre-works peak time frequency between Blackfriars and London Bridge of 0tph is replaced with a 16tph service. And all Charing Cross services stopping at London Bridge.


The "benefits" are a slower journey time and an increase in the likliehood of delays and shutdowns once the GN services get added to the mix.

You can't sell a slower journey time to the travelling public as an improvement.
 

JamesRowden

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The "benefits" are a slower journey time and an increase in the likliehood of delays and shutdowns once the GN services get added to the mix.

You can't sell a slower journey time to the travelling public as an improvement.

Ever travelled on the Northern Line between Kings Cross and London Bridge during the peak?
 

NorthKent1989

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That is a strange comparison. As said before, it is 4 tracks but, also Sydenham & FH don't have platforms on the fasts. So GTR doesn't have a choice but to run fast for all but 4tph. After all the Thameslink works, the Sydenham corridor is probably the only place along the Thameslink network that has a negative or no improvement out of the Thameslink Programme. At a time when everything is getting later, even our very very popular last service from London Bridge is planned to be withdrawn for an earlier one, so I'd think the North Kent should be happy considering its getting Thameslink and a Crossrail interchange.



Herne Hill is two stations from London Victoria, its hardly a long journey. Brixton and West Dulwich have become busier, quite a lot of people get off at Brixton from the south. Like all along the route Sydenham, Penge and Beckenham are South London suburbs, in zone 3-4. Again, not very out and only 20-ish minutes into Victoria, they aren't all the way out like Shepperton. They aren't nearly as busy as Putney, Richmond or Twickenham, they just don't warrant semi-fast trains.

Fair points about Herne Hill and Beckenham Junction.

But aren't Woolwich Arsenal and Abbey Wood the busiest stations on the the Dartford routes, in the London area that is, alongside Blackheath and Lewisham? Yet they're about to lose the semi fasts in favour of an all stops Thameslink service, as for Crossrail, this is the reason why I'm against Thameslink services along this route even more, surely the journey between Abbey Wood to Farringdon will be much quicker via Crossrail than via Thameslink? Most people will invariably change at Abbey Wood, and this also will put a spanner in the works for Crossrail to be eventually extended to Gravesend or Medway which is far more appealing, than Thameslink.

Early stages of Thameslink 2000 had plans for a service to Dartford via 2 out of the four lines (Greenwich, Woolwich/Lewisham, Bexleyheath and Sidcup) eventually they settled on the Woolwich/Lewisham and the Sidcup routes, but found that operating this service would have delay longer distance services to Maidstone, Ashford and Brighton into London Bridge, and running these services via Elephant & Castle was out of the question because of the Catford line, so the Dartford proposals were quickly dropped.

Also Crossrail still intend to extend to Gravesend, and I doubt South Eastern will be sqeezed out so Thameslink has a very short life expectancy here as I doubt they'll run Crossrail and Thameslink services along side each other.
 

Hadders

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Do you have a suggestion for how to make the overall timetable better considering this issue?

I'm not a timetabling expert but could they find a way to either switch a Cambridge stopper to go to Peterborough instead or try to improve the interchange time at Stevenage (it's currently 4 minutes).

As for the Hertford services the solution is simple - build the Bay platform. If this really isn't possible then consider temporarily extending a Hertford loop service to Cambridge, which would take the place of one of the additional Cambridge trains.
 

Ianno87

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I'm not a timetabling expert but could they find a way to either switch a Cambridge stopper to go to Peterborough instead or try to improve the interchange time at Stevenage (it's currently 4 minutes).

I suspect the problem there is that takes an extra path on the two-track section north of Huntingdon, for which there may not be capacity.
 

greatkingrat

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I'm not a timetabling expert but could they find a way to either switch a Cambridge stopper to go to Peterborough instead or try to improve the interchange time at Stevenage (it's currently 4 minutes).

As for the Hertford services the solution is simple - build the Bay platform. If this really isn't possible then consider temporarily extending a Hertford loop service to Cambridge, which would take the place of one of the additional Cambridge trains.

The problem is pathing the trains on the Cambridge branch. You are pretty much forced to have the fast, then the semi-fast, then the slow leaving Hitchin in fairly quick succession in order to give the slow time to get to Cambridge before the next fast catches up with it.

If you start swapping destinations around it won't work any more.
 

JackTheLad

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Disappointed that they chose the new Thameslink service from Maidstone East via London Bridge to call at Swanley instead of St Mary Cray. Swanley already has an enhanced Victoria service with SMY only having 2tph to Victoria only 10 minutes apart, then nothing for 50 minutes. This combined with the existing TL Sevenoaks services being curtailed at Blackfriars in favour of the new Orpington TL services going through the core. At SMY there is aproximately 30 minutes each hour with no service to London which considering it's in zone 6 and is meant to have a "turn up and go" style service, the extra TL services would've been extremely welcome!
 

maniacmartin

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(Threads merged)

I got a leaflet through my letterbox alerting me to the GTR (Southern/Thameslink/Gatwick Express) proposed 2018 timetable. It can be found at http://www.transformingrail.com/

On that site is a form wher you can key in two stations and a rough departure time, and it'll show the the direct trains they plan to run between them in 2018, alongside the trains that run today. Note that this is note a full journey planner. Only direct trains are shown.

You can also download PDFs of each route's proposed timetable.
 
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Minstral25

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Has anyone noticed the odd situation with the need to split the long distance services such that Bedford has a Brighton service and a Redhill route service (Gatwick terminator), plus the East Coast Main line has a Brighton and Redhill route (Horsham terminator) service.

By doing that the Brighton trains leave London Bridge roughly 10 minutes apart calling at same stations and then a 20 minute gap. Same along the Redhill route.

I assume this is because the Bedford trains are 15 minutes apart to get an even service to Bedford and same on the East Coast main line south of Stevenage.

Surely it would have been better to say all Bedford trains take the Brighton line and all the East Coast services take the Redhill route or vice versa. Then both the Redhill line and the Brighton line would have trains from London Bridge at 15 minutes apart rather than the less useful 10 min then 20 min.

I guess political expedient of a new Cambridge to Brighton service (rather than just Gatwick) is more important than customers.
 

notverydeep

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An oddity in the PM peak Great Northern Mainline timetable I have noticed, is that the Brighton – Cambridge Thameslink trains and the King’s Cross to King’s Lynn fast services seem to occupy the same paths between Royston and Cambridge, with for example both the 16:08 ex Brighton and the 17:42 somehow combining into load 24 on the move between Baldock and Ashwell & Morden as both have Royston times as 18:20 arrive and 18:21 depart. The King’s Lynn part of the cavalcade is clearly on the front though, as it gets to Cambridge a minute before the rear 12 cars!

I assume that this is the draft ‘public’ timetable and that the working timetable will have these trains appropriately spaced, but the suggested journey times for one or both are presumably not quite accurate.
 

Bishopstone

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As a result of the Lewes-Seaford service reducing from 3tph (approx) to 2tph in the peak, there is no longer a connection at Lewes into, or out of, the peak Eastbourne-London Bridge trains.

Seaford and Newhaven now have a reasonable number of City commuters, whose options will be:

1. Hang around at Lewes for 20 minutes
2. Take the Victoria connecting train and change at (eg) Haywards Heath for London Bridge, probably not getting a seat on the last leg of the journey
3. Tube across from Victoria

Overall, a backwards step and unsatisfactory.

However, I'm pleased to see Gatwick calls on all peak East Coastway trains. At present, the Up Seaford-Vic (06.54) non-stops the airport but then, oddly, calls at Horley.

It appears a couple of the Littlehampton-Thameslink trains are to be booked non-stop through Gatwick. Will this be the first time a Thameslink service has skipped Gatwick on a timetabled basis?
 

fusionblue

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So the sevenoaks line now gets 4tph, but all 4 depart within 10 minutes of each other (25, 35, 55 and 05).

So across the hour there's a 40 minutes period with no trains and then 4 in quick succession.
 

otomous

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So the sevenoaks line now gets 4tph, but all 4 depart within 10 minutes of each other (25, 35, 55 and 05).

So across the hour there's a 40 minutes period with no trains and then 4 in quick succession.

It's 20 minutes; 05 25 35 55 05 etc but yeah not ideal.

It's the consequence of serving different destinations, which will eventually dawn on whoever plans timetables in these parts and stops trying to indulge everyone who wants to keep the three direct trains a day to Cannon St they use instead of changing at London Bridge and having a more solid service for everyone.
 
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