Thameslink 2018 Timetable Consultation Part 2

[Envy123]

New Southgate seems that it will have (off-peak) 2tph semi-fast services skipping Hornsey and Harringay and 2tph all shacks. Faster services are indeed welcome.

Regarding interchanges at Finsbury Park for Thameslink southbound, it seems like there is a really tight 2 minute interchange if I change from the semi-fast and 13 minutes if I change from the all-shacks. Depending on if the interchange is cross-platform or not, that could be a good or bad thing.

 

[DaveN]

As advertised in the original consultation, Flitwick will lose the faster services from London that depart Flitwick at 18:00, 19:00, 20:00.

The morning faster services are more evenly timed than before but now the slower ones will be one minute before the fast ones rather than 4 minutes after which is not good news. The Leagrave stopping faster services will still be slower from Bedford than the Flitwick ones, so the Bedford people wanting Thameslink will use those 2tph that stop at Flitwick.

Another thing that no one seems to have noticed is that the timings from St Pancras to Blackfriars and vice versa are faster than to-day but the times from St Albans to St Pancras are a few minutes longer - presumably so that the services can queue up around Kentish town before entering the core. Those extra 2/3 minutes for the St Albans to St Pancras are not going to make those St Albans punters happy.

 

[carlovel1]

So will Potters Bar/Hatfield/Welwyn Garden City be left without a fast service into London on Sundays? Currently, we have 1 TPH Cambridge stopper into London on Sundays and those are usually very busy so I was hoping it would increase to 2 TPH in 2018.

According to what I've read, CBG-MDE will only a Monday to Saturday service so am left wondering if we are stuck with slow Moorgate services on Sundays...

 

[Hadders]

The weekend timetable hasn't been published yet but I'd anticipate an increase for many stations.

 

[philjo]

I think I saw somewhere that it was planned that the stopper service would run as present from Cambridge into Kings Cross on Sundays - can't remember where I saw this.

 

[philjo]

New Southgate seems that it will have (off-peak) 2tph semi-fast services skipping Hornsey and Harringay and 2tph all shacks. Faster services are indeed welcome.

Regarding interchanges at Finsbury Park for Thameslink southbound, it seems like there is a really tight 2 minute interchange if I change from the semi-fast and 13 minutes if I change from the all-shacks. Depending on if the interchange is cross-platform or not, that could be a good or bad thing.

I believe the plan is for Thameslink to have a dedicated platform at Finsbury park, so presumably platform 1 for Moorgate and 2 for Thameslink so would be cross-platform.
Kings Cross trains on the fast line would presumably use platform 4 - though I don't think there are any GN fast trains to kings Cross that are booked to call at Finsbury Park on weekdays in the new timetable?

 

[jon0844]

The failure to stop at Finsbury Park for a lot of trains seems to be a key complaint for the many people who got their responses in this week (from what I've read on local community groups on Facebook etc) so I wonder if they'll stick to their guns or make some changes?

One issue is that a lot of people wish to change at Finsbury Park for the tube or services to Moorgate. They are concerned about the increased time to change at King's Cross (or St Pancras) and many likely don't even know they can use their non-Travelcard season tickets for travel to Old Street or Moorgate on the Northern line.

 

[bramling]

I believe the plan is for Thameslink to have a dedicated platform at Finsbury park, so presumably platform 1 for Moorgate and 2 for Thameslink so would be cross-platform.
Kings Cross trains on the fast line would presumably use platform 4 - though I don't think there are any GN fast trains to kings Cross that are booked to call at Finsbury Park on weekdays in the new timetable?

If it is the intention for Thameslink to use Platform 2 at Finsbury Park, someone really should have spent the money on upgrading the UF to US1 crossover, both in terms of speed, and by providing a flashing yellow signal. I'm surprised this wasn't done as part of the Alexandra Palace-Finsbury Park extra capacity works. Maybe it will happen at some point, but if not it's yet another example of the failure to carry out useful improvement to the GN that would allow the proposed Thameslink service to run more smoothly, but instead just expecting to impose it on the existing infrastructure and expect everything to work well with just a new regulating policy - dream on.

A couple of timetables ago things were changed so that most up trains stopping at Finsbury Park are now booked to use platform 2, but in reality many still use platform 4 for various reasons. No doubt this will still continue.

For me I'd be happy to see all outer-suburban trains not call at Finsbury Park, as for me it simply adds time to the journey for a stop that I rarely use. It's so nice to use the various trains which don't call there. However I do understand that it is fairly well used, and amazingly seems to be becoming increasingly a destination in its own right.

 

[jon0844]

I think Finsbury Park will be favoured by many because, especially once lifts are installed, FPK could be a place to get trains from STP, KGX and MOG. The best of three worlds!

During disruption somewhere else, you have many options.

However the platforms and the subway are perhaps not geared towards having people using the station more like a terminal station.

 

[bramling]

I think Finsbury Park will be favoured by many because, especially once lifts are installed, FPK could be a place to get trains from STP, KGX and MOG. The best of three worlds!

Based on how things are at the moment, I think people will certainly use it for the trains which will run Potters Bar-Hatfield-Welwyn GC and beyond. I'm less convinced people will use it so much for journeys to further out - simply because this gives them last pick of the seats. People will tolerate this for a 20-minutes journey to Hatfield or Welwyn, but not if travelling further. At places like Hitchin it's common to see people arriving on the platform 20 minutes before their train in order to be first on.

However the platforms and the subway are perhaps not geared towards having people using the station more like a terminal station

Perhaps being the understatement of the century!

The station simply can't handle large volumes of people, and this includes the LU part too. Again, if the Thameslink Programme expects Finsbury Park to function as a major interchange, some pretty major rebuilding should have been carried out - although looking at the place it's hard to know where to start short of completely flattening the place and starting again. Virtually everything about the station is inadequate for large numbers of people - the stairways are too narrow, there are 90 degree corners and pinchpoints everywhere, the subway is too narrow, the interchange to the Underground is inadequate (how many stations in London use spiral staircases other than as an emergency exit?), and there aren't enough Underground platforms to cope with large volumes of people arriving from elsewhere.

I saw what happened on the well-known 27th December fiasco a few years ago, when I passed through on 2x313s, the station was in complete meltdown to the point where it was clearly dangerous. People could be seen trying to get to the train, but were impeded by other flows of people. Had commuters been involved, under time pressure to get somewhere, I think there could easily have been injuries or worse.

 

[infobleep]

The failure to stop at Finsbury Park for a lot of trains seems to be a key complaint for the many people who got their responses in this week (from what I've read on local community groups on Facebook etc) so I wonder if they'll stick to their guns or make some changes?

One issue is that a lot of people wish to change at Finsbury Park for the tube or services to Moorgate. They are concerned about the increased time to change at King's Cross (or St Pancras) and many likely don't even know they can use their non-Travelcard season tickets for travel to Old Street or Moorgate on the Northern line.

Could that be solved by education. So posters and notices given out with season tickets staying it's valid.

 

[Hadders]

Could that be solved by education. So posters and notices given out with season tickets staying it's valid.

LU and GTR can't even educate their own staff about the inter-availability so what hope is there about advising passengers.

They even display misleading posters at Kings Cross...

 

[Envy123]

I believe the plan is for Thameslink to have a dedicated platform at Finsbury park, so presumably platform 1 for Moorgate and 2 for Thameslink so would be cross-platform.

Sounds great.

Kings Cross trains on the fast line would presumably use platform 4 - though I don't think there are any GN fast trains to kings Cross that are booked to call at Finsbury Park on weekdays in the new timetable?[/QUOTE]

So, I'd have to go to Potters Bar to get Thameslink if I want to avoid Kings Cross. Sounds like a raw deal.

The failure to stop at Finsbury Park for a lot of trains seems to be a key complaint for the many people who got their responses in this week (from what I've read on local community groups on Facebook etc) so I wonder if they'll stick to their guns or make some changes?

One issue is that a lot of people wish to change at Finsbury Park for the tube or services to Moorgate. They are concerned about the increased time to change at King's Cross (or St Pancras) and many likely don't even know they can use their non-Travelcard season tickets for travel to Old Street or Moorgate on the Northern line.

No wonder they complain. This would mean having to go through the already heaving Kings Cross to go to Old Street and Moorgate.

Could that be solved by education. So posters and notices given out with season tickets staying it's valid.

That doesn't resolve the problem of the Northern Line between Kings Cross and Moorgate being very much heaving with people.

During university, I recall having to let 5 (!) trains go by at Kings Cross and I still couldn't get on. I ended up using GN to Moorgate, and my journey was much smoother as it wasn't so overcrowded.

I'm not the only passenger to use GN to Moorgate to avoid Kings Cross. Many people do it too, and with the reduction of fast trains to Finsbury Park, Kings Cross is likely going to be further overcrowded.

 

[JamesRowden]

That doesn't resolve the problem of the Northern Line between Kings Cross and Moorgate being very much heaving with people.

During university, I recall having to let 5 (!) trains go by at Kings Cross and I still couldn't get on. I ended up using GN to Moorgate, and my journey was much smoother as it wasn't so overcrowded.

I'm not the only passenger to use GN to Moorgate to avoid Kings Cross. Many people do it too, and with the reduction of fast trains to Finsbury Park, Kings Cross is likely going to be further overcrowded.

24tph Thameslink service (with 16tph via London Bridge) relieves Northern Line at Kings Cross.

 

[Envy123]

24tph Thameslink service (with 16tph via London Bridge) relieves Northern Line at Kings Cross.

Well, it would definitely relieve Kings Cross from passengers wanting to go to Farringdon (SSL) or London Bridge (Northern), that's for sure.

But you still got the problem that there are passengers on the outer-suburbans who change at Finsbury Park for Old Street and Moorgate to avoid Kings Cross. And they wouldn't be able to do that in the new timetable. I can see that alternatives could be:

-Taking the Northern Line and further overcrowding Kings Cross.
-Staying on a Thameslink train to London Bridge and taking the Northern Line from there, possibly taking longer.

Both are worse than the current arrangements.

 

[TheDavibob]

Well, it would definitely relieve Kings Cross from passengers wanting to go to Farringdon (SSL) or London Bridge (Northern), that's for sure.

But you still got the problem that there are passengers on the outer-suburbans who change at Finsbury Park for Old Street and Moorgate to avoid Kings Cross. And they wouldn't be able to do that in the new timetable. I can see that alternatives could be:

-Taking the Northern Line and further overcrowding Kings Cross.
-Staying on a Thameslink train to London Bridge and taking the Northern Line from there, possibly taking longer.

Both are worse than the current arrangements.

Farringdon to Liverpool Street (for Moorgate) using Crossrail, at least in the long run, should help relieve the problem to some extent.

 

[JamesRowden]

Well, it would definitely relieve Kings Cross from passengers wanting to go to Farringdon (SSL) or London Bridge (Northern), that's for sure.

But you still got the problem that there are passengers on the outer-suburbans who change at Finsbury Park for Old Street and Moorgate to avoid Kings Cross. And they wouldn't be able to do that in the new timetable. I can see that alternatives could be:

-Taking the Northern Line and further overcrowding Kings Cross.
-Staying on a Thameslink train to London Bridge and taking the Northern Line from there, possibly taking longer.

Both are worse than the current arrangements.

Or walk from Farringdon, City Thameskink or Blackfriars. Or change onto the sub surface lines or Crossrail at Farringdon.

 

[387star]

Any plans for earlier/later trains between gatwick and chichester-bognor?

 

[JonathanH]

Any plans for earlier/later trains between gatwick and chichester-bognor?

No - first / last trains almost identical (as you would expect really given the franchise specification doesn't require anything else).

Current timetable
http://www.southernrailway.com/download/26726.7/16-southampton-portsmouth-and-chichester-to-london/

Proposed timetable
https://www.transformingrail.com/-/...ndon-and-brighton-to-chichester-west-2018.pdf

 

[philjo]

I noticed this document dated 3 august listing issues raised in the consultation that they are looking at.

Royston is the only mention for the GN route - everything else is south of London

https://www.transformingrail.com/-/media/goahead/transforming-rail/files/were-working-on.pdf

 

[Failed Unit]

I noticed this document dated 3 august listing issues raised in the consultation that they are looking at.

Royston is the only mention for the GN route - everything else is south of London

https://www.transformingrail.com/-/media/goahead/transforming-rail/files/were-working-on.pdf

So it was a waste of time filling in the consultation- they have already decided to downgrade the service for Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar.

I did expect that was the case.

I do hate the fact that in the press people were mainly natural about the changes. Yes why would anyone from Cambridge for example express an opinion on services they never use. Perhaps if they analysed people who are impacted it is they are very much against the 10 minute slowing of a 20 minute journey.

Sad thing is GTR know we can't go elsewhere so they can do what they like with us.

Hopefully other TOCs can block this. VTEC can't be happy for example about the capacity lost with 4tph at Welwyn North. Why do GTR think extra trains on the routes biggest bottle neck is a sensible idea? I wonder if East Coast passengers will see the kind of extended journey times it is rumoured MML will.

 

[Hadders]

Absolutely disgraceful to bustitute the service between Hertford North and Stevenage.

 

[Martin222002]

Absolutely disgraceful to bustitute the service between Hertford North and Stevenage.

To be fair it's more Network Rail's fault that's happening then GTR. Firstly it's Network Rail which isn't going to built the planned extra platform at Stevenage at the time GTR had originally planned it would be available by. On top of that, it'll be Network Rail telling GTR there isn't the available paths to run the Moorgate services north of Stevenage.

 

[bILLOO]

To be fair it's more Network Rail's fault that's happening then GTR. Firstly it's Network Rail which isn't going to built the planned extra platform at Stevenage at the time GTR had originally planned it would be available by. On top of that, it'll be Network Rail telling GTR there isn't the available paths to run the Moorgate services north of Stevenage.

Watton residents cannot be too happy. I remember them campaigning hard for a station in the first place.

 

[Hadders]

To be fair it's more Network Rail's fault that's happening then GTR. Firstly it's Network Rail which isn't going to built the planned extra platform at Stevenage at the time GTR had originally planned it would be available by. On top of that, it'll be Network Rail telling GTR there isn't the available paths to run the Moorgate services north of Stevenage.

Watton residents cannot be too happy. I remember them campaigning hard for a station in the first place.

I've no idea whose fault it is - the (Conservative) Stevenage MP blames the Labour Controlled Stevenage Borough Council in his official response to the consultation

Regardless, we shouldn't be bustituting services. GTR/Network Rail need to find a solution, if this means one of the additional extra Off Peak trains to Cambridge is canned then so be it.

 

[jon0844]

I've no idea whose fault it is - the (Conservative) Stevenage MP blames the Labour Controlled Stevenage Borough Council in his official response to the consultation

Isn't the work reliant on both Network Rail and the council funding the extra work, which involves more than just a new platform? I believe new flats are part of the scheme?

If it's a Labour council, maybe Corbyn can use this as an example of why we need to return to British Rail?

Reminds me a bit of the issues facing TfL when Herts County Council stalled and couldn't fund various projects around Watford and the St Albans Abbey line. I don't know the exact details, but it seems if you rely on councils to do anything you're buggered!

I bet GTR gets ALL the blame though.

 

[bILLOO]

Regardless, we shouldn't be bustituting services. GTR/Network Rail need to find a solution, if this means one of the additional extra Off Peak trains to Cambridge is canned then so be it.

Spot on. Hertford to Stevenage is very useful for Hertford passengers travelling north to change at Stevenage for connecting services. I doubt a bus would be a popular alternative.

 

[Class 170101]

Absolutely disgraceful to bustitute the service between Hertford North and Stevenage.

I thought GTR ran out of trains. However if so then perhaps a 313 shuttling up and down from Hertford North might help. I cannot believe a 6 minute slot cannot be found to turn round at Stevenage once an hour.

 

[cle]

Is there a revised plan for the bay at Stevenage?

 

[Hadders]

It's nothing to do with the number of trains, there are enough of those.

An additional bay platform is required at Stevenage as the enhanced Off Peak service to Cambridge means there are insufficient paths to turnback Hertford trains in Platform 4, or indeed insufficient paths to run them to Letchworth and terminate them there.

I believe there are plans for the new platform at Stevenage but it' not funded. I don't know who should be funding it or whether flat are involved. I know there is debate about the regeneration of the town centre but I'd have thought this is a separate issue entirely. There is no 'railway' land that could be sold off for flats so I really don't know how or why flats can be part of the issue.

I'd have thought the platform should've been funded by the Thameslink work as ultimately it's linked to that. It can't cost that much to build a bay platform given the overall Thameslink Programme budget.

I still don't think the full enhanced Off Peak timetable should operate until this is resolved.