coppercapped
Established Member
There have been several threads concerning the trains and the service to be offered by both Thameslink and Crossrail. In both cases comparisons have been made to the S-Bahn operations in Germany and similar services in other cities in Europe such as the RER in Paris - the suggestions often being that if <something-or-other> can be done there, why can’t it be done here.
I thought I’d start a new thread to concentrate on the network design to avoid cluttering up the traction pages with this debate.
I am most familiar with German practice having lived and worked in the country for a dozen years including 3 years in München. Things that seems to be missing from comments posted here on German practice is an acknowledgement of how different Germany is from the UK and also how different S-Bahnen can be from normal German local and regional train operation.
Firstly - London is unique. It is very much larger than any German city, the only other European city which comparable is Paris. The city-state of Berlin has 3.8 million inhabitants and the surrounding metropolitan area brings the numbers up to some 6 million - all other German cities are smaller. Greater London’s population is 8.7 million and that of the metropolitan area is some 14 million.
Another way of looking at the differences is the total population of several countries and looking at the percentage of the urban population living in each ones largest city. For a selection of countries the World Bank gives the following recent numbers:
So it can be seen that the populations in Germany and the Netherlands are more distributed than the UK. For Belgium and Switzerland the percentage of the population living in or near the largest city is comparable to London, the cities themselves are much smaller so the problems aren’t so immense.
Within Germany, S-Bahnen differ from other local and regional routes in that they have
As each S-Bahnnetz has a different history, not all of these features are present in every one - or at least not to the same extent - but the trend is that they are all moving towards the same targets.
Thameslink and Crossrail each have a central tunnelled section connecting with branches at each end. Of the 14 S-Bahn networks in Germany only six have a similar topography - Dresden, Hamburg, München, Nürnberg, Rhein-Main (Frankfurt-am-Main) and Stuttgart, even if not all of them have a tunnel! All the others are single route or polycentric systems with different characteristics although there are borderline cases such as Leipzig-Halle.
The S-Bahn that I am most familiar with is München. This delightful city has a population of about 1.5 million and with its metropolitan region just under 6 million. None of the branches of its S-Bahn are more than about 20 miles long and it operates a minimum 20 minute interval off-peak and 10 minutes peak on each one. The exception is the outlying Altomünster to Dachau line which is, IIRC, every 60 minutes off-peak and 30 minutes peak. Apart from Altomünster, the maximum length of journey from the city centre is 45 to 50 minutes. The trains (ET423) - - are four coach articulated units, maximum train length is three units. They have stunning acceleration - 2,350kW for a total mass of 101 tonnes (no toilets!) - but cloth covered ironing boards for seats…
All this means that there are 30 trains per hour through the central tunnel in the peaks but the trains run mostly on segregated tracks outside. A major exception is the dozen miles on line S1 from the western boundary of the Nymphenburg Gardens - to the west of the Hbf - to Neufahrn and Freising which is shared with mainline trains to and from Landshut, Regensburg and Plattling. Even here there are some stretches of multiple track and the ability to loop trains at selected stations - and the mainline trains have a similar speed to the S-Bahn ones, 140kph. The junctions near the centre are grade separated, including those at München-Ost where trains on the lines S3 to Holzkirchen and S7 to Kreuzstrasse reverse.
As neither Thameslink nor Crossrail have the exclusive use of their own tracks, apart from the central tunnel, any comparison already falls down. If Crossrail were an S-Bahn it would now have its dedicated tracks to at least past Stockley/Airport Junction on its western branch, this being the first point where the train density would fall and it would also have a grade separated connection the the Relief lines at that point. If Thameslink were an S-Bahn it wouldn’t have a flat junction immediately at one end of its central section as exists at Blackfriars and it wouldn’t share high speed tracks as it will do at Welwyn. In view of the interaction with the rest of the network the management of both routes will have very hard jobs in meeting München’s performance even with a third fewer trains per hour.
How could a true RER/S-Bahn network be set up in London? How could segregrated tracks be realised? Where does the land and money come from?
I thought I’d start a new thread to concentrate on the network design to avoid cluttering up the traction pages with this debate.
I am most familiar with German practice having lived and worked in the country for a dozen years including 3 years in München. Things that seems to be missing from comments posted here on German practice is an acknowledgement of how different Germany is from the UK and also how different S-Bahnen can be from normal German local and regional train operation.
Firstly - London is unique. It is very much larger than any German city, the only other European city which comparable is Paris. The city-state of Berlin has 3.8 million inhabitants and the surrounding metropolitan area brings the numbers up to some 6 million - all other German cities are smaller. Greater London’s population is 8.7 million and that of the metropolitan area is some 14 million.
Another way of looking at the differences is the total population of several countries and looking at the percentage of the urban population living in each ones largest city. For a selection of countries the World Bank gives the following recent numbers:
- GB 64.5 million 19%
- BE 11.2 million 18%
- CH 8.2 million 20%
- DE 80.9 million 6%
- FR 66.2 million 21%
- NL 16.9 million 7%
So it can be seen that the populations in Germany and the Netherlands are more distributed than the UK. For Belgium and Switzerland the percentage of the population living in or near the largest city is comparable to London, the cities themselves are much smaller so the problems aren’t so immense.
Within Germany, S-Bahnen differ from other local and regional routes in that they have
- a regular timetable with dense headways and prolonged periods of operation,
- comparatively small distances between stops, compared both with the mainline as well as the previously offered service on the route,
- close integration with other modes of public transport,
- special trains, laid out for high capacity (high acceleration, reduced seating) and rapid passenger ingress and egress (many and wide doors),
- easily accessible stations with generously dimensioned access routes,
- segregation and separate alignment of tracks, particularly in busy areas,
- their own dedicated control, separate from that of longer distance trains,
- separate marketing under a brand name, (S-Bahn), targeted to increase public perception and to associate the service with increased political prestige of the area and its funding politicians.
As each S-Bahnnetz has a different history, not all of these features are present in every one - or at least not to the same extent - but the trend is that they are all moving towards the same targets.
Thameslink and Crossrail each have a central tunnelled section connecting with branches at each end. Of the 14 S-Bahn networks in Germany only six have a similar topography - Dresden, Hamburg, München, Nürnberg, Rhein-Main (Frankfurt-am-Main) and Stuttgart, even if not all of them have a tunnel! All the others are single route or polycentric systems with different characteristics although there are borderline cases such as Leipzig-Halle.
The S-Bahn that I am most familiar with is München. This delightful city has a population of about 1.5 million and with its metropolitan region just under 6 million. None of the branches of its S-Bahn are more than about 20 miles long and it operates a minimum 20 minute interval off-peak and 10 minutes peak on each one. The exception is the outlying Altomünster to Dachau line which is, IIRC, every 60 minutes off-peak and 30 minutes peak. Apart from Altomünster, the maximum length of journey from the city centre is 45 to 50 minutes. The trains (ET423) - - are four coach articulated units, maximum train length is three units. They have stunning acceleration - 2,350kW for a total mass of 101 tonnes (no toilets!) - but cloth covered ironing boards for seats…
All this means that there are 30 trains per hour through the central tunnel in the peaks but the trains run mostly on segregated tracks outside. A major exception is the dozen miles on line S1 from the western boundary of the Nymphenburg Gardens - to the west of the Hbf - to Neufahrn and Freising which is shared with mainline trains to and from Landshut, Regensburg and Plattling. Even here there are some stretches of multiple track and the ability to loop trains at selected stations - and the mainline trains have a similar speed to the S-Bahn ones, 140kph. The junctions near the centre are grade separated, including those at München-Ost where trains on the lines S3 to Holzkirchen and S7 to Kreuzstrasse reverse.
As neither Thameslink nor Crossrail have the exclusive use of their own tracks, apart from the central tunnel, any comparison already falls down. If Crossrail were an S-Bahn it would now have its dedicated tracks to at least past Stockley/Airport Junction on its western branch, this being the first point where the train density would fall and it would also have a grade separated connection the the Relief lines at that point. If Thameslink were an S-Bahn it wouldn’t have a flat junction immediately at one end of its central section as exists at Blackfriars and it wouldn’t share high speed tracks as it will do at Welwyn. In view of the interaction with the rest of the network the management of both routes will have very hard jobs in meeting München’s performance even with a third fewer trains per hour.
How could a true RER/S-Bahn network be set up in London? How could segregrated tracks be realised? Where does the land and money come from?
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