Thameslink Chaos (07/11/11)

[jon0844]

I don't know when it happened today, but I got my first FCC alert (email) at 1737 today. Seems a bit late for people heading home after work!

FCC is bad at conveying information, but I expect they did a good job on Twitter which now seems the only way you're going to get any information and be able to ask for more details.

I am sure the departure boards were showing confusing, wrong and conflicting details as they usually do. Trains 'on time' when they aren't there, trains showing in the wrong order on the screens etc.

Every time they say they'll investigate to improve things - so why do they never improve? (Part of the answer is the new Atos system and a combination of it being badly set up and used by people who don't seem to know how it works).

Given they can't even get someone to go on to platform 2/3 at Hatfield in over a year to see (hear) that the speakers aren't working, and fix them, despite being told over and over again (and them confirming they'll check on their forum), I doubt they actually do anything besides saying they will. It's as if they think that these major incidents won't happen again.. and we're only in early November. Imagine what it will be like when it gets more cold, wet and slippery out there

 

[swt_passenger]

Not wanting to sound stupid but why not have a signalling centre controlling thameslink in its whole?

That's the plan already - Three Bridges ROC (Regional Operations Centre) is going to control the whole of Thameslink, including the routes into Kings Cross.

Part of the recently announced '800 signal boxes to close' master plan.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I don't suppose it would be helpful if i said this never happened in the days of semaphores and Absolute Block, would it? I wouldn't want to be thought of as a luddite, heaven knows.

When the off peak service was 2 tph (I Luton slow , and a Bedford semi- fast after Elstree - and a much smaller peak load) - it is 15 tph FCC now and 6+ EMT , which I dont think could be managed by old fashioned block signalling - nice though it is to think of it !)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, the drivers are generally very good indeed at providing as helpful information as possible to peoplr on their trains.

Re terminating at Luton - In the good old days long before privatisation I'm sure that that is what would have happened, with the fast trains making additional stops.

However its the same old chaotic shambles re communication from FCC generally though. I don't know why they have these inquiries after disruption, nothing ever changes. (Although maybe its a bit unfair of me to say that as I don't know what's happening at stations). Both the FCC website and the service disruption section of the National Rail website indicate that there are no FCC trains between West Hampstead Thameslink and St Albans, whilst the Live departures/arrivals section clearly shows that they are - admittedly a reduced service but the departure times from all the stations clrearly show that some trains are running through. Maybe they mean that there are no trains arriving at and departing from stations between West Hampstead and St Albans (which appears to be the case) , but that is not what they actually say .

The last time this sort of thing happened to a member of my family, they ended up going to Hatfield expecting to find a bus to St Albans, (after going to St Pancras, then waklking to Kings Cross and waiyting for a train there) only to find that the by the time they and some other passengers reached Hatfield the buses were no longer running as the problem had been resolved.

In which case a taxi and a refund would have been the least FCC should offer.

 

[HSTEd]

Putting the eight additional trains (I believe it is 8 right?) per hour from the ECML into that bottleneck is just going to make it worse, but apparently four platforms would have been far too expensive.

 

[Firestarter]

Putting the eight additional trains (I believe it is 8 right?) per hour from the ECML into that bottleneck is just going to make it worse, but apparently four platforms would have been far too expensive.[/QUOTE


Fully agree, doomed to be a daily chaos.

 

[Bedpan]

In which case a taxi and a refund would have been the least FCC should offer.

No taxi, she ended up getting a 300/301 bus from Hatfield and a train from St Albans, but she got her fare refunded from FCC when she wrote to them. .

 

[jon0844]

At Hatfield (6.35pm) there were five members of FCC staff guiding people to the replacement buses; except there weren't any buses there!

I do wonder why they figured they needed two people to stand on platform 2/3 to tell people needing to get a bus to St Albans to cross the bridge and follow the signs for the exit, and another two at the bottom of the stairs, then only one outside nowhere near the area where the buses stop. Perhaps it was to stop staff being in a position where people would talk to them while wondering when the next bus might turn up!!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

No taxi, she ended up getting a 300/301 bus from Hatfield and a train from St Albans, but she got her fare refunded from FCC when she wrote to them. .

Fair enough - from previous "diversions" - Hatfield to St Albans is not a cheap fare - around £4 or so ...

 

[Minstral25]

FCC brilliantly bad tonight - got email as I left office walking to City station to tell me that all services to Brighton were cancelled, as I was close to station thought I'd pop down to see if any better information before trying to work out how to get home. In the platform was an 8-car 319 with Brighton on the destination jumped on and it took me home to Redhill arriving a few minutes late.

If I had gone to London Bridge or Victoria I would have been at least 30 to 60 minutes late home. Glad I popped into City now.

 

[jon0844]

It does seem that they are somewhat late to provide info. I've often ignored what I am told and use some initiative and detective work.

Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose but it's better to do something than stand around and wait.

Checking inbound trains to see if the 'on time' or 'no report' train even exists is always the first check!

 

[Bald Rick]

At Hatfield (6.35pm) there were five members of FCC staff guiding people to the replacement buses; except there weren't any buses there!

I do wonder why they figured they needed two people to stand on platform 2/3 to tell people needing to get a bus to St Albans to cross the bridge and follow the signs for the exit, and another two at the bottom of the stairs, then only one outside nowhere near the area where the buses stop. Perhaps it was to stop staff being in a position where people would talk to them while wondering when the next bus might turn up!!

You must have been on the same train as me. Surprisingly few people on the train, only about 50 in the bus queue and not surprisingly fewer buses ie none. Was with a colleague so shared a taxi to St A, £15 between two wasn't as bad as I expected.

I do wonder how everyone gets home in these circumstances on the TL north, about 15000 people an hour just seem to disappear via other routes and modes.

 

[jon0844]

Some people will stay in town and wait for things to calm down, as I've done a few times (easier when the wife worked in town too - as we could meet up and go for a meal or something).

Other people will take buses or tubes, then take a cab, deliberately to avoid the hassle of waiting for a bus - even if it means paying extra money.

I do often wonder about everyone else, but FCC was running shuttles from more than one station - so I suppose a lot of people would have stayed on the train instead of (previously) all having to go from Hatfield to St Albans and then proceed north. In this case, FCC was running three crossovers.

FCC can often sort these things out quite well, but they're terrible at letting people know! I've gone from St Pancras to St Albans before, during ECML disruption, where they've had buses set up, yet they hadn't told anyone at King's Cross who were told to wait around for more information. I'd simply gone to St Albans on the basis that I'd pay to get a bus over to Hatfield - so seeing free buses lined up was a bit of a surprise!

 

[notoemt]

So what was going on exactly? Anyone know? My non-stop to Leicester EMT train was made to stop at Luton and Bedford - noticed they didn't seem to make the Derby train (which stops at bedford anyway) stop at Luton. Chaos on the boards when I got home as well but I doubt that has anything to do with Thameslink.

 

[Bald Rick]

So what was going on exactly? Anyone know? My non-stop to Leicester EMT train was made to stop at Luton and Bedford - noticed they didn't seem to make the Derby train (which stops at bedford anyway) stop at Luton. Chaos on the boards when I got home as well but I doubt that has anything to do with Thameslink.

Complete loss of power to the signalling system from Cricklewood to Radlett. Started around 1330, restored by 1615. Temporary generators doing the work. Temporary block working was introduced, but as ever, capacity much reduced and long delays. FCC suspended everything between West Hampstead and Luton.

 

[jon0844]

Good old FCC; just got a text now (2205) to say that the 2139 Old Street to Hatfield is cancelled due to emergency engineering works (perhaps no driver available?!). If I was waiting, I'd be so glad to know 25 minutes after it was due to go - and I was already down on the platform waiting with no phone signal!

 

[infobleep]

At Haywards Heath last night the 20.32 was cancelled, as was the 21.47, which meant the next train to London Bridge wasn't until 45 minutes later! I guess the trains and crews must have been displaced because it was a long time after the actual fault first occurred and no trains were actually going north of London Bridge by this point.

Interestingly at Gatwick they read out list of stations the 21.18 train would be stopping at and then the list of stations they could get to once they joined a new train at St Pancreas, after taking the Northern line to get there. They then mentioned that no trains were stopping at West Hampstead. However they never mentioned Blackfriars; Farringdon or City Thameslink at any stage, even though the train would normally stop at those. That's automated announcements for you.

 

[The Box Photter]

I must say it was kind of FCC and their partners in crime Network Fail to screw up both ends of my working week.

On Monday I was on the 07.26 Flitwick - Sevenoaks, which ground to a halt between Mill Hill and Hendon. The driver had informed us (just after leaving St Albans, which would have been the last opportunity to bail-out) that there were "signalling problems" and the journey could be delayed by up to 30 mins. After standing for 15-20 mins, we inched forward to the next signal and sat there for about 40 mins. The driver did try to keep us informed and explained that there were 10 trains ahead of us. After a glacier-like crawl, we eventually reached West Hampstead at around 09.25, which is 1hr 12 mins after we should have arrived at St Pancras. At least the driver released the doors there, which meant half the passengers got off. This merely highlighted the inadequacies of WHT as a station when 500-plus passengers all tried to use the same narrow staircase to exit. When will the new stairs & passenger bridge be ready?

I'm not sure what time the track circuit failure occurred, but in my view it would have made sense to broadcast this to southbound drivers and all stations so that passengers had the option of continuing their journeys or opting to try EMT instead. It was particularly galling to sit there watching the EMT services storm past on the fast lines whilst we were getting to know each other on a full & standing Class 319.

I'm not an S&T engineer, but to my mind and given that the track through the core has no junctions, trains should have been given authority to pass any red signals and proceed with caution. Its not like the line speed is 125 mph, the trains are usually crawling at 10-20 mph most days anyway. Alternatively, St Pancras should have been used to terminate southbound trains and the service should have been split in two when it became obvious that the problems were not going to be rectified by the evening peak. By letting trains though to the southern half of the system it meant there were insufficient units & drivers to get us all home again on Monday evening.

At the best of times, Thameslink works, just about. I'm dreading the consequences of having trains being sent to far-flung destinations in 3rd rail land as well as having all the GN services using up paths through the core.

Whilst FCC was not responsible for the track circuit failure any more than it was for the power supply problems last night which gave me the opportunity to sample a Class 321 to Arlesey, it has a responsibility to the passengers to give accurate and detailed information, which is always sorely lacking. FCC platform staff (where visible) seem to have no back-up from management and are left to deal with confused and often irate passengers who have shelled out large sums of money from their taxed income just for the privilege of using FCC to get to and from work. Display screens at FCC stations are inaccurate and inadequate and the only audible announcements seem to be those warning us not to get too close to the edge of the platform/leave our belongings behind/be careful because the weather might have made the platform slippery or telling us about the weekend engineering works.

Lessons are never learned and Network Rail has to come clean regarding the reason for Monday's failure. At what time was it known that the circuit had failed and how much testing of the revised infrastructure goes on before the line is handed back to operations? Would it not have made more sense to put a blockade in on TL services so that the whole infrastructure could be completed over a period of weeks or months in the same way that it was when the St Pancras LL "box" was being created. At least then the service was reliable.

 

[jon0844]

It is sad that there is no requirement for FCC to add information screens on the 313s, 321s or 319s. Or indeed for drivers to actually use them. I'd say about 30-40% of the time the 317 screens aren't used, and little more on the 365s.

Providing information is important so I am amazed that in 2011, there are trains in service where the driver says nothing (except the 'welcome' message at the origin station and a request to read the safety notices, and just before the train terminates).

 

[Aictos]

It is sad that there is no requirement for FCC to add information screens on the 313s, 321s or 319s. Or indeed for drivers to actually use them. I'd say about 30-40% of the time the 317 screens aren't used, and little more on the 365s.

Providing information is important so I am amazed that in 2011, there are trains in service where the driver says nothing (except the 'welcome' message at the origin station and a request to read the safety notices, and just before the train terminates).

I quite agree, I'm surprised that that CIS screens weren't fitted at the last refurbishment of the 313s, 319s and 321s as well as CCTV not being fitted to the 319s and the 365s this being even more surprising as the 365s are the best EMUs that the GN has.

 

[jon0844]

When I was assaulted after getting off a 365, it was annoying that there was no CCTV on the train to identify the passenger.

Clearly FCC didn't have to do it as part of their franchise, while they did have to do some other things that they have done. They've spent quite a lot on the stations, which was something they needed to do throughout the franchise. CCTV and CIS was not (Wagn paid to have CIS added to the 317s just before they finished and also CCTV on the 313s).

 

[Minstral25]

I must say it was kind of FCC and their partners in crime Network Fail to screw up both ends of my working week.


At the best of times, Thameslink works, just about. I'm dreading the consequences of having trains being sent to far-flung destinations in 3rd rail land as well as having all the GN services using up paths through the core.

.

Funnily enough I've been commuting from the South via City Thameslink for 2 weeks now and I dread the consequences of my trains going up to Overhead cable land where wires break and the signals don't work.

Really wish FCC would realise that South of the Thames is part of their network as well instead of just looking after the St Pan to Bedford bit!

 

[Simon11]

I assisted at St Pancras during Friday evening disruption as a FCC Manager.

There were many things that we did really well, ie putting on numerous buses, having information at hand to give customers options for travelling to their destination.

But there was also things we didn’t do well, which I will be passing on.

I think something worth pointing out is that in times of disruption like on Monday and Friday, quite a few staff like myself have given up our evening to assist our customers for no additional pay.

I still fail to understand why GN has to be connected to TL, any disruption, and the whole network is down…..

 

[Lee_Again]

Not quite sure where to Start, Simon11.

There were many things that we did really well, ie putting on numerous buses, having information at hand to give customers options for travelling to their destination.

It's all very well putting on buses but saying that you did this "really well" is, well, just not relavent. The busses should be put on anyway. Plenty of evidence on here to suggest that customer information was not done well. As an aside, while some units don't have CIS screens they all have an intercom. Some drivers are great but too many just refuse to use it. Why?

"But there was also things we didn’t do well, which I will be passing on.

You speak like this is the first time this has happened. With all due respect, and it's not just your area/company, but these things have been happening for many years; there should be nothing to pass on. Passengers get frustrated because they hear this all the time and still it's the same thing, time after time after time. Sorry, but your industry has proven that it can't learn.

I think something worth pointing out is that in times of disruption like on Monday and Friday, quite a few staff like myself have given up our evening to assist our customers for no additional pay.

I think something worth pointning out is that in time of disruption like on Monday and Friday, quite a few passengers have given up their evening depsite paying a fortune for their ticket.

With respect no one gives a hoot that you are there for no additional pay. What do want, praise? I suspect you're looking in the wrong place.

I still fail to understand why GN has to be connected to TL, any disruption, and the whole network is down…..

...because there is only one tunnel. And if you mean connected as companies, imagine two companies running trains through the core. Company A blaming company B. Passengers don't care, just make it work. You're right about the 'whole network'. Plenty of discussion on here about the ECML getting blocked by a circuit failure at Farringdon.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I assisted at St Pancras during Friday evening disruption as a FCC Manager.

There were many things that we did really well, ie putting on numerous buses, having information at hand to give customers options for travelling to their destination.

But there was also things we didn’t do well, which I will be passing on.

I think something worth pointing out is that in times of disruption like on Monday and Friday, quite a few staff like myself have given up our evening to assist our customers for no additional pay.

I still fail to understand why GN has to be connected to TL, any disruption, and the whole network is down…..

Good for you Simon , despite the comments below.Not an easy task when the 4 tracks get closed for around 4 hours on a Friday afternoon. (Having got the peak up to London , - how do you get them back)

I dont work for FCC , but live on the patch , and have assisted several times in non safety critical areas during makor disruption- the last time being back in the December snows and that until 2130 on a Saturday night.

 

[Firestarter]

I must say it was kind of FCC and their partners in crime Network Fail to screw up both ends of my working week.


At the best of times, Thameslink works, just about. I'm dreading the consequences of having trains being sent to far-flung destinations in 3rd rail land as well as having all the GN services using up paths through the core.

.

Funnily enough I've been commuting from the South via City Thameslink for 2 weeks now and I dread the consequences of my trains going up to Overhead cable land where wires break [B][/B]and the signals don't work.

Really wish FCC would realise that South of the Thames is part of their network as well instead of just looking after the St Pan to Bedford bit!

Think you confusing the TL with the GN side

 

[AlterEgo]

It's all very well putting on buses but saying that you did this "really well" is, well, just not relavent. The busses should be put on anyway. Plenty of evidence on here to suggest that customer information was not done well.

Hang on a moment, it isn't easy to organise buses at the drop of a hat. Buses being put on, while they darned well ought to be, is good!

You speak like this is the first time this has happened. With all due respect, and it's not just your area/company, but these things have been happening for many years; there should be nothing to pass on. Passengers get frustrated because they hear this all the time and still it's the same thing, time after time after time. Sorry, but your industry has proven that it can't learn.

Yes, because once you've had x number of incidents, (which are all identical - NOT!) everyone learns how to do things perfectly. That just isn't the case.

I think something worth pointning out is that in time of disruption like on Monday and Friday, quite a few passengers have given up their evening depsite paying a fortune for their ticket.

That's most unfortunate. However Simon11 did so out of choice and a sense of duty, I expect.

With respect no one gives a hoot that you are there for no additional pay. What do want, praise? I suspect you're looking in the wrong place.

No he isn't. Well done Simon11. Plenty of 'salarymen' would just go home, making the problem worse. Credit for thinking of more than just yourself.

...because there is only one tunnel. And if you mean connected as companies, imagine two companies running trains through the core. Company A blaming company B. Passengers don't care, just make it work. You're right about the 'whole network'. Plenty of discussion on here about the ECML getting blocked by a circuit failure at Farringdon.

If you were on a Stagecoach bus and the motorway was blocked due to the road caving in, would you berate Stagecoach? The problem was not of FCC's causing. The handling of it was mixed, as Simon11 states - he himself admits there are things to learn.

While I respect your right to have an opinion, some of your comments are incredibly rude and unnecessary. Unless you are a Premier League referee or a copper, I doubt you go into work every day, do your job and then have hundreds of ill-informed laymen rip into your handiwork.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....It's all very well putting on buses but saying that you did this "really well" is, well, just not relavent. The busses should be put on anyway. Plenty of evidence on here to suggest that customer information was not done well....

Where he was, up to date information may have been given out (I don't know because I wasn't there), but that doesn't mean it applies everywhere. Buses aren't always available during the week (companies don't tend to keep more buses than they think they need) so providing a bus service isn't always possible.

....You speak like this is the first time this has happened. With all due respect, and it's not just your area/company, but these things have been happening for many years; there should be nothing to pass on. Passengers get frustrated because they hear this all the time and still it's the same thing, time after time after time. Sorry, but your industry has proven that it can't learn.....

Improvements can always be made, lessons can always be learned, nothing is ever perfect. When disruption happens suddenly, things don't always go to plan, sometimes an updated plan doesn't work because of some unforseen event or problem. People don't just sit there waiting for problems to occur so they can jump into action.

....I think something worth pointning out is that in time of disruption like on Monday and Friday, quite a few passengers have given up their evening depsite paying a fortune for their ticket.

With respect no one gives a hoot that you are there for no additional pay. What do want, praise? I suspect you're looking in the wrong place.....

If you faced the attitude that staff face when disruption occurs, no matter whose fault it is, you'd be appreciative towards Simon for working without pay. I've worked in central London on the railway and I know how sh*ty some people can be (even when there is no disruption), but I guess that is what staff are for, right?

Would you feel differently if no staff had given their time willingly? Would your comments then be about how FCC don't have any staff? Or perhaps how they should have given their time up to help out?

....because there is only one tunnel. And if you mean connected as companies, imagine two companies running trains through the core. Company A blaming company B. Passengers don't care, just make it work. You're right about the 'whole network'. Plenty of discussion on here about the ECML getting blocked by a circuit failure at Farringdon.

Surely you mean the MML (Midland Main Line), the ECML doesn't go to Farringdon.

It's easy to pick at others posts. Simon didn't have to announce to world he was there, he could have stayed quiet and not put himself in line for the flak like some other members of staff would. He admitted somethings didn't go so well and could be improved, which should be welcomed, even if he only refered to his particular station/area.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not an S&T engineer, but to my mind and given that the track through the core has no junctions, trains should have been given authority to pass any red signals and proceed with caution.

They are currently installing a system to allow exactly what you suggest in the T/L core route. It's called Proceed on Sight Authorisation (POSA), and most of the signals will have a subsidiary aspect of two flashing white lights, using similar hardware to calling on lights as used now.

The system is already provided on the ELL core section - I've heard no reports of how well it works, or even if it has been used in anger yet.

 

[Class377/5]

On Monday, why didn't they start turning back at Kentish Town?
.

Simple answer - politics.

By attempting to run the full service (even though it was obvious to all that it was impossible to achieve) FCC could claim maximum compensation from Network Rail for the delays.

Wrong. Simple answer is LU shut the station if any more than three trains terimate there due to the fact the FCC part is bolted onto the Tube and it screws up the Northern Line. West Hampstead is currently the only decent station to terminate at but has only one or two members of staff so the only place they can terminate trains properly with staff north of St Pancras is St Albans. Pretty useless for everyone.

Staff do care about the line and want to see things get better. The last week has been very bad for FCC but the initial cause of all of this is outside their control.

 

[jon0844]

First seem to have been able to source buses quite quickly, for which it should be commended, but they still struggle to relay information accurately at times.

If you had to run buses and give information, you'd expect the bus provision to be the hard bit!

Only this morning, FCC was telling people about problems for trains into Moorgate. For a while the automated system said that passengers for Moorgate should go to Drayton Park and seek an alternative from there. Obviously this was because the train terminated there (while some were diverted to King's Cross). Only after did a manual announcement come on to tell people to change at Finsbury Park, as a far more viable place to seek alternative arrangements!