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Thameslink Chaos (07/11/11)

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12CSVT

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Only this morning, FCC was telling people about problems for trains into Moorgate. For a while the automated system said that passengers for Moorgate should go to Drayton Park and seek an alternative from there. Obviously this was because the train terminated there (while some were diverted to King's Cross). Only after did a manual announcement come on to tell people to change at Finsbury Park, as a far more viable place to seek alternative arrangements!

The TOCs never seem to learn that in situations like this, automated announcement systems are as much use as a chocolate teapot.
 
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jon0844

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I bet the system can be set up to give a different announcement though, but I am not sure FCC fully understand - even a year on - how to use it (or change things from the default).
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Have you see the daft First Bus advert with the singing driver and happy passengers? Bus is best or something.

One thing I have never understood about the "Bus Bandits" is that there is still no more synergy with their rail operations than in BR days.

If FCC is in trouble, shouldn't First Bus ride in to help?

The DfT can surely call in Tim O'Toole and demand First Group sort out their FCC service as a group when it goes up in smoke?

Or am I a simpleton?
 

Old Timer

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Have you see the daft First Bus advert with the singing driver and happy passengers? Bus is best or something.

One thing I have never understood about the "Bus Bandits" is that there is still no more synergy with their rail operations than in BR days.

If FCC is in trouble, shouldn't First Bus ride in to help?

The DfT can surely call in Tim O'Toole and demand First Group sort out their FCC service as a group when it goes up in smoke?

Or am I a simpleton?
The bus companies do not operate with drivers and buses/coaches sitting around. Many Companiesd also have school term time contracts that they have to meet and thus although a bus may be available, the times within which it is available may be constrained by contract work, the requirements of its own bus service requirements, and the availability of drivers.

You simply cannot just ring up and get a fleet of buses by return (unless you try the West Midlands ;)) for those very reasons.

Another factor to be considered is the fact that the buses can in many cases pass beyond their local area and they are then reliant upon guidance of some sort as to howe to reach the various stations. There are also the issues with low bridges/restricted turns, etc that need to be ironed out.

Now that is not to say that contingency plans can not be drawn up - they should be and they should address all the sorts of issues I have laid out - however to expect a fleet of buses to appear over the horizon within minutes or even an hour or so is a tad immature
 

Minstral25

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Think you confusing the TL with the GN side

No I'm just worried about my trains going north of Farringdon with those flimsy overhead wires and rubbish signals.

Really my comments are tongue in cheek as the third rail network gets a huge amount of criticism on this site but except when it snows the problems tend to be north of the river on the Thameslink route.

I've just started a new job based near St Pauls so I use City Thameslink as my main station, in 9 days of using this route since starting I have had delays and problems every day - not all very serious but I have not yet been on a train that arrives at its destination on time - best so far is 4 minutes late.

I'm very sure that all the railway people working for FCC and NR are putting in the effort to run a decent service in very difficult circumstances and I appreciate their efforts but I don't believe the problems are their fault.

I do think the Thameslink planners have made it a lot worse with incremental upgrades requiring interfacing with existing systems. How much better would it have been if they shut the core for 12 months, completely rebuilt and opened a basically new railway with all new infrastructure in place like they did with the East London Line.
 

Bald Rick

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I do think the Thameslink planners have made it a lot worse with incremental upgrades requiring interfacing with existing systems. How much better would it have been if they shut the core for 12 months, completely rebuilt and opened a basically new railway with all new infrastructure in place like they did with the East London Line.

Not really necessary or practical in this case. When the core was shut in 2004/5 there were spare platforms at St Pancras HL; there aren't now. For the duration of the block it was bl**dy hell for us commuters trying to fight our way on to the tube to cross London. I suspect most commuters would prefer weekend blocks (when they would rarely be affected) rather than an extended blockade (when they definitely would be). Even if the occasional one went wrong. I may be wrong but I think last weekend was the first major issue caused by the project for a couple of years.

A good number of the weekend blocks have been for rebuilding Farringdon and Blackfriars which for much of the work entailed closing the tube as well. That certainly isn't practical in these locations for anything other than weekend work.

There is definitely a place for long bloackades - when the work can not be done in any other way for example, but otherwise the work should be done where it affects the fewest people.
 

asylumxl

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No I'm just worried about my trains going north of Farringdon with those flimsy overhead wires and rubbish signals.

Really my comments are tongue in cheek as the third rail network gets a huge amount of criticism on this site but except when it snows the problems tend to be north of the river on the Thameslink route.

I've just started a new job based near St Pauls so I use City Thameslink as my main station, in 9 days of using this route since starting I have had delays and problems every day - not all very serious but I have not yet been on a train that arrives at its destination on time - best so far is 4 minutes late.

I'm very sure that all the railway people working for FCC and NR are putting in the effort to run a decent service in very difficult circumstances and I appreciate their efforts but I don't believe the problems are their fault.

I do think the Thameslink planners have made it a lot worse with incremental upgrades requiring interfacing with existing systems. How much better would it have been if they shut the core for 12 months, completely rebuilt and opened a basically new railway with all new infrastructure in place like they did with the East London Line.

Very few signal failures happen north of the river in my experience, and when signal failures do happen they are usually in 3rd rail land e.g. the signal failure this thread was created in reference to. For example, today there were cancellations due to problems at London Bridge.

I've been commuting for 3 years on the TL route and so I have the experience to back this up, and my trains are also usually on time.

Also, I don't see how the same kind of signals installed by the same company can be "rubbish".
 

HH

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I bet the system can be set up to give a different announcement though, but I am not sure FCC fully understand - even a year on - how to use it (or change things from the default).

Don't be so sure. I haven't checked this system but the tech in PIS systems even on relatively new trains is seriously out of date. 377s have a whopping 16Mb to store data, which as mp3 downloaders will know, isn't very much.

You might almost think that they were made in such a way as to need expensive upgrades before they'd even run off the factory line.
 

ChiefPlanner

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When FCC runs , it runs OK (it is not very pleasant - but does the job) - this is usually the norm. You can have months of decent service,

However , like Mailda , its very naughty when it goes wrong. In my long experience - the drivers are 100% good in doing their best to communicate and so on.
 

jon0844

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Don't be so sure. I haven't checked this system but the tech in PIS systems even on relatively new trains is seriously out of date. 377s have a whopping 16Mb to store data, which as mp3 downloaders will know, isn't very much. You might almost think that they were made in such a way as to need expensive upgrades before they'd even run off the factory line.

I wasn't talking about the CIS on the train in this case, but the system at the stations.

The lack of information, whether down to old tech (and the Atos system they bought is only 13-14 months old!) or poor operator training is immaterial. Such basic stuff undermines all the hard work they do to get things like replacement buses, which would seem like the harder thing to do during disruption.

If they struggled to find buses, I could understand it, but when you have problems and you let the CIS tell people to go to Drayton Park and continue their journey on alternative routes from there, something is very wrong!
 

Minstral25

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Not really necessary or practical in this case. When the core was shut in 2004/5 there were spare platforms at St Pancras HL; there aren't now. For the duration of the block it was bl**dy hell for us commuters trying to fight our way on to the tube to cross London. I suspect most commuters would prefer weekend blocks (when they would rarely be affected) rather than an extended blockade (when they definitely would be). Even if the occasional one went wrong. I may be wrong but I think last weekend was the first major issue caused by the project for a couple of years.

A good number of the weekend blocks have been for rebuilding Farringdon and Blackfriars which for much of the work entailed closing the tube as well. That certainly isn't practical in these locations for anything other than weekend work.

There is definitely a place for long bloackades - when the work can not be done in any other way for example, but otherwise the work should be done where it affects the fewest people.

Blockades are a pain in the neck but in almost two weeks I still haven't been on a train that has been on time to or form the core. Perhaps I am just unlucky but my perception is it is not the train operating company but the infrastructure and knackered units they are given to operate the services because this work has been going on far too long.

The drivers have been brilliant in explaining the problems (and apologising of course) and the platform staff excellent as well.

Today's problems were caused by a broken down unit at London Bridge, last week was mostly signal issues on the Midland main line and in the core. It's all over the route being worked on and seems like the Jubilee Line upgrade problems caused by the refurbishment and replacement work being spread over a long time scale rather than biting the bullet with a year of disruption followed rapidly by a better service.

I'm sure FCC could be better managed but I don't envy their job with old tired uncomfortable units and all sorts of differing infrastructure to work with.
 

Firestarter

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No I'm just worried about my trains going north of Farringdon with those flimsy overhead wires and rubbish signals.

Really my comments are tongue in cheek as the third rail network gets a huge amount of criticism on this site but except when it snows the problems tend to be north of the river on the Thameslink route.

I've just started a new job based near St Pauls so I use City Thameslink as my main station, in 9 days of using this route since starting I have had delays and problems every day - not all very serious but I have not yet been on a train that arrives at its destination on time - best so far is 4 minutes late.

I'm very sure that all the railway people working for FCC and NR are putting in the effort to run a decent service in very difficult circumstances and I appreciate their efforts but I don't believe the problems are their fault.

I do think the Thameslink planners have made it a lot worse with incremental upgrades requiring interfacing with existing systems. How much better would it have been if they shut the core for 12 months, completely rebuilt and opened a basically new railway with all new infrastructure in place like they did with the East London Line.

I ment in terms off overhead wire problems. The TL side hardly ever has overhead wire problems unlike the GN side which is why I said your confusing the TL side with the GN who pretty much every week have some sort of overhead wire problem.
 

Bedpan

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Today's problems were caused by a broken down unit at London Bridge

Are you sure? On the FCC website (or it might have been National Rail, or both), it said that they were due to emergency safety checks at Preston Park!

(This was when northbound trains were suffering delays of an hour in mid - late afternoon).

Anybody know what went wrong?
 
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Bald Rick

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Blockades are a pain in the neck but in almost two weeks I still haven't been on a train that has been on time to or form the core. Perhaps I am just unlucky but my perception is it is not the train operating company but the infrastructure and knackered units they are given to operate the services because this work has been going on far too long.

The drivers have been brilliant in explaining the problems (and apologising of course) and the platform staff excellent as well.

Today's problems were caused by a broken down unit at London Bridge, last week was mostly signal issues on the Midland main line and in the core. It's all over the route being worked on and seems like the Jubilee Line upgrade problems caused by the refurbishment and replacement work being spread over a long time scale rather than biting the bullet with a year of disruption followed rapidly by a better service.

I'm sure FCC could be better managed but I don't envy their job with old tired uncomfortable units and all sorts of differing infrastructure to work with.

I think you've been unlucky. My train in the morning is on time / early about 90% of the time, and in the evening it's about 95%. Last week was quite an exception - 1 track issue in the core (causing two signal failure) and a power issue on the north side (causing multiple signal failures).

Good to hear the drivers have been brilliant - in my experience they have certainly got better in the past twelve months. Except for the over-enthusiatic driver who advises us where every neutral section is and that 'passengers in the pan cars will hear a bang as the VCBs open and re close; it's safe don't worry'
 

EM2

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Are you sure? On the FCC website (or it might have been National Rail, or both), it said that they were due to emergency safety checks at Preston Park!

(This was when northbound trains were suffering delays of an hour in mid - late afternoon).

Anybody know what went wrong?
A unit hit 'something' in Clayton tunnel, so there were diversions in force until the tunnel had been checked and declared safe.
 

Minstral25

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I think you've been unlucky. My train in the morning is on time / early about 90% of the time, and in the evening it's about 95%. Last week was quite an exception - 1 track issue in the core (causing two signal failure) and a power issue on the north side (causing multiple signal failures).

Good to hear the drivers have been brilliant - in my experience they have certainly got better in the past twelve months. Except for the over-enthusiatic driver who advises us where every neutral section is and that 'passengers in the pan cars will hear a bang as the VCBs open and re close; it's safe don't worry'

Haven't met that driver yet but he sounds fun.

Got two on-time trains today which was good although the evening service stood at London Bridge for about 5 minutes which had me thinking "oh Dear" but was because we arrived early.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are you sure? On the FCC website (or it might have been National Rail, or both), it said that they were due to emergency safety checks at Preston Park!

(This was when northbound trains were suffering delays of an hour in mid - late afternoon).

Anybody know what went wrong?

Problems on my way home last night was the broken down train at London Bridge but yes I did hear of delays earlier at Preston Park which was causing issues for Northbound trains
 
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Lol he was one of my instructors, think he is the longest serving driver at my depot, and a genuinely nice guy! Try to do useful announcements myself without going over the top, usually announcing where good interchanges can be made, and will announce if stopped at a red signal if I have been there for a minute or so, anything that stops an egress getting pulled is good in my book!

Not really had much involvement in the many recent debacles, them generally falling on my rest days or after an early shift has finished, about the worst I have had is a few peak time short formations I have had to apologise for, amazing how many people you can squeeze into a four-car though!!!
 
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Lol he was one of my instructors, think he is the longest serving driver at my depot, and a genuinely nice guy! Try to do useful announcements myself without going over the top, usually announcing where good interchanges can be made, and will announce if stopped at a red signal if I have been there for a minute or so, anything that stops an egress getting pulled is good in my book!

Not really had much involvement in the many recent debacles, them generally falling on my rest days or after an early shift has finished, about the worst I have had is a few peak time short formations I have had to apologise for, amazing how many people you can squeeze into a four-car though!!!

I've had the pleasure of being driven by this chap on a number of occasions and he seems to be genuinely taking pleasure from doing his job to the best of his ability. It really is great to hear someone showing pride in a job well done. I realise that when delays occur, the driver hasn't got much more information than the passengers.

As for putting in a blockade for a period to allow the upgrade, as both lines into St Pancras LL are signalled bi-directional and there is a crossover on the incline (I think running up to Dock Junction) it shouldn't be beyond the wit of planners to run a service every fifteen minutes. When platforms were available in the high level station, FCC never used more than two plaform faces at a time. Use St Pancras LL for fast Bedford services and use West Hampstead TL as the terminus for the stopping services to/from Luton.

In my experience the main cause of delays in 25Kv land is temporary power failures knocking out the signals or the very rare occurrence of a de-wiring. There seem to be far more failures due to ancient infrastructure south of the Thames and through the tunnels on the Brighton route.
 

OxtedL

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My observations on the causes of delay are the opposite, so I think a lot of it is perspective. :D

From where I'm sitting, the route to Brighton has merely had a couple of cases of bad luck this year with South Croydon and Balcombe etc, whereas de-wirements and suchlike seem to be a permanent fixture on OHL routes. I think you can see this attitude reflected in my third rail land compatriots. It probably just shows what we notice as unusual. Or something like that.

Not that I'm saying anything about the reality of where incidents tend to occur, I have nothing to add on that. :)
 

Aictos

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As for putting in a blockade for a period to allow the upgrade, as both lines into St Pancras LL are signalled bi-directional and there is a crossover on the incline (I think running up to Dock Junction) it shouldn't be beyond the wit of planners to run a service every fifteen minutes. When platforms were available in the high level station, FCC never used more than two plaform faces at a time. Use St Pancras LL for fast Bedford services and use West Hampstead TL as the terminus for the stopping services to/from Luton

Where pray would the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop stopping services use as a terminus though, Elephant and Castle?

Good idea all the same, :)
 

Bald Rick

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As for putting in a blockade for a period to allow the upgrade, as both lines into St Pancras LL are signalled bi-directional and there is a crossover on the incline (I think running up to Dock Junction) it shouldn't be beyond the wit of planners to run a service every fifteen minutes. When platforms were available in the high level station, FCC never used more than two plaform faces at a time. Use St Pancras LL for fast Bedford services and use West Hampstead TL as the terminus for the stopping services to/from Luton.

During the blokade there were certainly 8tph off two platforms at the High Level and it worked like clockwork. However the extra loadings on the tube were a nightmare, and this was before Eurostar / HS1 moved to St Pancras. The service from the south largely terminated at Kings Cross Thameslink (RIP) using the Clerkewell crossovers. If the core was closed they would have to terminate elsewhere 'south' of the river.
 
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Where pray would the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop stopping services use as a terminus though, Elephant and Castle?

Good idea all the same, :)

I don't know the frequency of those services but E&C does give an interchange with the Northern & Bakerloo lines. Would there be room at London Bridge to accommodate the Wimbledon/Sutton service?

I must say that I am still surprised that FCC is still having to run trains to Sevenoaks, Rochester & Ashford. The end to end (and even the Blackfriars to destination) journey times must be totally uncompetitive compared to journeys from Victoria/Charing Cross.

The availability of trains through the Snow Hill Tunnel has generated new passenger flows, but in my mind the key role of the route (in the peak hours at least) is to get workers into London from St Albans & points north thereof as well as workers from Croydon & points south thereof into the capital. In my opinion, the network, scheduling and resource allocation should be planned with this in mind. This means that when things go wrong, priority should be given to getting people on trains to those destinations that are not served by any other rail operator or by bus/tube alternative.

Perhaps as a long-suffering commuter living almost at the far north end of the line with no reasonable alternative to get me home when things go pear-shaped I am a little biased, but telling me that my ticket will be accepted on London Buses and Southern services is no good as my home is well outside of the Travelcard zones!
 

ChiefPlanner

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I agree - and some feedback to senior managment has been in that times of sever sof severe disruption - the target ought to be to give capacity to those stations north of Elstree to Bedford - (the Oyster served area has other options of LU tube lines etc) - whereas the 10,000 or so daily passengers north of Elstree rely pretty much on the MML , and south of Croydon , Southern cannot handle displaced FCC passengers as well as its own customers.

Running Sevenoaks- Victoria via Catford (as the weekend trains do) is also an acceptable option.

Elephant and Castle , despite in theory having tube interchange - cannot manage severe peak loadings.
 

williamn

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FCC run trains out to Ashford etc because they're the trains that SET used to have that terminated at Blackfriars. Since there are not currently any terminating platforms they now run through.

Also, E+C DOES currently handle peak loadings, often 50%+ of a train will get off there in the mornings
 

STEVIEBOY1

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Where pray would the Wimbledon/Sutton Loop stopping services use as a terminus though, Elephant and Castle?

Good idea all the same, :)

If they can't or won't run these trains all the way upto St. Albans or Luton as they do now, could they at least come through the central part and terminate/turn round at Kentish Town or West Hampstead Thameslink, at least passengers could come a little way north this way. It does seem very silly spending all this money on upgrades and for the Wimbledon/Sutton people, getting a poorer service. Otherwise could they termiate at the new Black Friars, I assume it will be as before, IE some through platforms and some terminating platforms?
 

Schnellzug

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My observations on the causes of delay are the opposite, so I think a lot of it is perspective. :D

From where I'm sitting, the route to Brighton has merely had a couple of cases of bad luck this year with South Croydon and Balcombe etc, whereas de-wirements and suchlike seem to be a permanent fixture on OHL routes. I think you can see this attitude reflected in my third rail land compatriots. It probably just shows what we notice as unusual. Or something like that.

Not that I'm saying anything about the reality of where incidents tend to occur, I have nothing to add on that. :)

But did you see that someone from Not Work Rail was saying that the third rail was Old Fashioned technology, and its days were numbered, and the entire Southern ought to be converted to Overhead as quickly as they possibly can? I suppose this is the mania for Speed again; plus it's probably more Modern. Regardless of whether or not it all falls to pieces with monotonous regularity.
 

ole man

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Let's have some facts then, when did the OLE last fail on Thameslink Route?.
25kv is the way forward, everybody agree's with this, Old fashioned people will just have to get with the times.
 

Schnellzug

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It falls down very very often on the ECML and the GEML. Perhaps it was done on the cheap on those lines, and was done better on what was the London Midland region. Maybe that was why, the LM had lots of experience. Will the GWML, and would any hypothetical conversion of the Southern, be done with an eye to reliability & durability or cost? I think i could probably guess which it would be.

:-/
 

ChiefPlanner

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It falls down very very often on the ECML and the GEML. Perhaps it was done on the cheap on those lines, and was done better on what was the London Midland region. Maybe that was why, the LM had lots of experience. Will the GWML, and would any hypothetical conversion of the Southern, be done with an eye to reliability & durability or cost? I think i could probably guess which it would be.

:-/


Hypothetical sums it up.
 
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